DILEMMAS (Evolution)

by David Turell , Sunday, October 26, 2014, 21:45 (3461 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Spider silk, then, was as special to God as humans.. This is just one of billions of preprogrammed patterns, all of which had to be passed down for billions of years etc. [/i]-We are at a impass. I have no idea why spiders and silk were even invented. Where we agree, we admit there is enormous complexity in life in all of its diverse ramifications. But what you don't seem to appreciate is how complex the complexity really is. I've thrown Denton at you and you seem to have responded by not recognizing the tedious step by step molecules have to go through to accomplish any of the mechanisms he described. None of these bodily functions can be created from scratch simply looking for the first properly working protein molecule to start series of interlocking molecular events. Somehow or other the endpoint must be visualized in advance and the appropriate proteins understood from the beginning.-Evolution is not like Edison inventing the first light bulb. He used a hunt and peck system, trying this and that, and finally succeeded. We have agreed to throw out chance. What remains to consider is the information needed to design systems. And I believe that is implanted in the original genomes or God put it in later as the process of evolution proceded. The key to what happened to start first life and evolve it is information. Design and information are the same. I will never believe an IM can produce more than simple adaptation without a full complement of design information instructions. We might find such a code in future research, but so far all we have is ragther simple epigenetic changes. As an example,Reznick's guppies that grew larger simply had to increase growth hormone a tad. All of the complex reactions that went into growth were in place as part of the original patterns of development. The growth hormone increase pushed them. The opposite for smaller guppies. This is how I view an IM.
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> dhw: Of course we're discussing incredulity.....this individual spider programme - would survive through billions of descendants, species and environmental changes until spider-silk-time arrived. I find that incredible, so I'm trying to find another explanation.-If the original genome set the patterns for life as Denton describes, why shouldn't the programs survive? Who or what removes them? Does the Britannica disappear as it sits in your library? The original DNA that started life is still here and life is still here and following patterns that had to be implanted in the DNA information from the start. DNA not only controls functions, it has the plans to make animal and plant bodies in the embryology section iof DNA. DNA is estimated, if my memory is correct, to contain the information in 20,000 volumes similar to the Britannica. We have to deal with the issue of information. It is possible we will find a layer of the genome, another code, and they are turning up as I have published here in the past, that will show it contains the information for the strange inventions we see in the bush. We just don't have that answer now. The complex molecular interactions as described by Denton are in place, but cannot have been invented without genetic instrctions, that is underlying information.
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> dhw: As usual, you switch to attacking Darwinism. If you believe in common descent ...you cannot reject the theory en bloc. We have agreed a thousand times that we do not accept gradualism or random mutations, so we're looking for an alternative.-And I do that because I think your reasoning is grounded in Darwin. And I have rejected his theory totally. All I accept is the progression from OOL to now looks evolutionary to me. I think it is theisticially designed evolution. Darwin is totally out of the picture for me. I think current findings have totally refuted his notion.
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> dhw: I'm offering a way out of that dilemma as an alternative to your inadequate preprogramming hypothesis which - like a chance origin of life and evolution - seems to me incredible.-My pre-programming hypothesis is not inadequate for the patterns of life in general. And I think part of the bush is set up for a balance of nature since life depends upon the constant injestion of energy.
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> dhw: We are talking about mechanisms within the genome that may be capable of more than mere adaptation. ... instead of preprogramming every innovation you can think of, God created a mechanism within the cell..... creating most of the variations we see in the evolutionary bush;-Certainly possible. Not found yet and what we adaptive ability we have found so far looks too weak to do that.-> dhw:Evolution is going through a period of stasis, and so currently we see only adaptation.-We may be at the end of evolution with humans fully arrived.-> dhw:... but he dabbled in order to create the basic structures (such as heart, kidneys, eyes etc.) and maybe even some variations, like the human brain. “-Yes. Those basic structures are designed from the beginning in the patterns we have discussed, or God stepped in at the Cambrian and inserted them. We don't know which. My dilemma is simply I don't know which way God did it.->dhw:There is a whole layer of gene function we know nothing about”, and yet you know that the genome is incapable of innovation.-If we find a missing layer then it may be capable of complex innovation. Again from what we know now, the genome is not capable of it.