Animal language (Animals)

by dhw, Sunday, January 18, 2015, 13:16 (3379 days ago) @ David Turell
edited by dhw, Sunday, January 18, 2015, 13:30

dhw: Do you think nature would have been unbalanced without the specifically, divinely planned weaverbird's nest, and thus unable to produce humans?
DAVID: This is an extreme twisting of my thought.-Taking the nest as one example out of millions, I asked if you thought it was essential for the production of humans, and you answered: “Yes, to provide a balance in nature.” If your God specifically preprogrammed the nest or designed it with a dabble in order to balance nature, why is it a twist to say that otherwise nature would have been unbalanced? But perhaps you can now see that it doesn't sound very convincing!-DAVID: I simply believe there is an enormous diversity in life's branching outcomes, and that this bush of life is part of the plan. Balance of nature is the only concept I see that explains it, if an explanation is warranted. Humans arrived. That is enough for me to accept that God's evolutionary process was successful.-We agree that there is enormous diversity. And with my theist hat on, I have no trouble agreeing that God planned diversity. However, if the plan was diversity, it was successful without humans. If you don't know why God had to design the nest in order to balance nature for the sake of humans, perhaps you should consider very seriously the possibility that he didn't design the nest and it has nothing to do with the balance of nature and the production of humans, i.e. the weaverbird designed it, and diversity is an end in itself.
 
dhw: You have claimed that humans are different in kind from our fellow animals because ”the giant leap to us doesn't fit any orderly form of evolution.” I am trying to show that the gap we now see is the result of an orderly progression, which can be traced as I've described above. Please explain what you see as the giant leap in the examples I have given.-DAVID: The point is I don't see a giant leap in your 'progression'. Our sudden development of a giant brain is a giant leap, to me comparable to the Cambrian. Based on the existing challenges of nature 8 million years ago, it was an unnecessary change. Current apes prove that to me.-As has been pointed out many times, ALL changes were “unnecessary”, since bacteria have survived unchanged. As for our giant brain, it weighs about a quarter of an elephant's and a fifth of a sperm whale's, so size is hardly the issue. If there is no giant leap between cave-dwelling vocalizing animals, cave-dwelling vocalizing humans, and all subsequent phases from them to us in our houses and with our Internet, how does the difference in kind (not degree) manifest itself?
 
dhw:Your second sentence suggests that the original instructions for life contained an inventive mechanism (= God's role “in part”) rather than detailed instructions on how to build a weaver's nest (= “in whole”).
David: That is a possible solution to my dilemma.-Then my probing has not been in vain.
 
dhw: We too are a community of cell communities, but with larger capacities. And so we too could be the product of the same inventive mechanism.
DAVID: The obvious extreme complexities of our brain makes your suggestion very far-fetched.-So the extraordinary complexities of other animals' brains might have come about through the combined inventive mechanisms of cell communities, and only our even more complex brains couldn't have done, although our other organs presumably did.
 
dhw: So do you think our fellow animals are capable or incapable of emotion (including love), reason, design, planning, communication, learning, organization, invention?
DAVID: Yes, to a much lesser degree than humans in the areas of reason, design, planning, communication and invention. With emotion they can show more love than we deserve, can show disappointment, depression, excitement etc.
dhw: Thank you for using the word “degree”. Much more appropriate than the word “kind”.
DAVID: Appropriate for your views. Just a slip of the typing fingers. On reflection, in the area of emotion it is degree, in all other areas it is kind.-One step forward, two steps back.
You'll never get to the end of the track.-*************************-I shall be away for two or three days, which should give you time for further reflection! My thanks as always for your patience.