Science study supernatural?

A proposal:-http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11191-012-9574-1

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I have always wondered why science was that way. I mean, from a theological standpoint, God and other spiritual creatures MUST exist within the laws of nature. That we do not recognize WHERE or HOW exactly does not make it less true.

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What is the purpose of living? How about, 'to reduce needless suffering. It seems to me to be a worthy purpose.

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Tony: I have always wondered why science was that way. I mean, from a theological standpoint, God and other spiritual creatures MUST exist within the laws of nature. That we do not recognize WHERE or HOW exactly does not make it less true.-But if God makes the laws of nature, He is outside of them as well as within them. An atheist scientist doesn't even want to go there as it weakens his philosophic position. Methodological materialism and reductionism are much safer
for the tribe of Dawkins. They don't want to think 'out of the box'.

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DAVID has drawn our attention to an article that discusses science's attitude towards the "supernatural". -http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11191-012-9574-1-Tony: I have always wondered why science was that way. I mean, from a theological standpoint, God and other spiritual creatures MUST exist within the laws of nature. That we do not recognize WHERE or HOW exactly does not make it less true.-DAVID: But if God makes the laws of nature, He is outside of them as well as within them. An atheist scientist doesn't even want to go there as it weakens his philosophic position. Methodological materialism and reductionism are much safer for the tribe of Dawkins. They don't want to think 'out of the box'.-Very few people with firm opinions on anything are willing to think 'out of the box'. Firstly, I don't see how anyone can categorically dismiss every single one of the billions of psychic experiences that have been reported through the ages. No matter how many fakes, delusions and misperceptions there may have been, no-one is in a position to dismiss all cases as such. Secondly, if we accept that, for instance, people have acquired accurate information by means of a psychic experience, it is misleading to call this "supernatural" ... it simply means that there are elements of Nature we do not understand. Thirdly, belief in events that appear to defy scientific explanation does not have to be equated with belief in any kind of god.
 
I keep an open mind about the authenticity and possible causes of "gods, ghosts, spirits, and extrasensory or psi phenomena", but would like to offer an 'out-of-the-box' hypothesis for discussion. (I offered it a few days ago, but no-one took any notice.) If intelligence is energy within matter, and is not the product but the cause of cells interacting, it could survive the death of the cells whose actions it triggers. It could also, in people with heightened sensitivity, communicate with other intelligent energies, independently of its physical containers, which theoretically could even mean independently of time and space. It's a variant of what is known as "panpsychism". That should set a few teeth gnashing.

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dhw: I keep an open mind about the authenticity and possible causes of "gods, ghosts, spirits, and extrasensory or psi phenomena", but would like to offer an 'out-of-the-box' hypothesis for discussion. If intelligence is energy within matter, and is not the product but the cause of cells interacting, it could survive the death of the cells whose actions it triggers. It could also, in people with heightened sensitivity, communicate with other intelligent energies, independently of its physical containers, which theoretically could even mean independently of time and space. It's a variant of what is known as "panpsychism". That should set a few teeth gnashing.-I don't know that 'intelligence is energy within matter', is a good description by itself. When we look the development of consciousness, those who think out of the box look at quantum mechanics and put consciousness and mind at a quantum level, although that is just a general description and no one seems to know just how that concept works. Thre is a general connectivity of quantum particles throughout the universe. That would fit extrasensory and psi phenomena, and perhaps panpsychism, whatever that weird term means. To redefine terms, intelligence is not consciousness. The level of intelligence is the proper use of thought and learned knowledge. It is an aspect of consciousness. If cellular matter is not conscious, but acts as if it is, then it is not intelligent, but it is using information automatically from coding it has been given by intelligence existing before the formation of the cell.

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dhw: I keep an open mind about the authenticity and possible causes of "gods, ghosts, spirits, and extrasensory or psi phenomena", but would like to offer an 'out-of-the-box' hypothesis for discussion. If intelligence is energy within matter, and is not the product but the cause of cells interacting, it could survive the death of the cells whose actions it triggers. It could also, in people with heightened sensitivity, communicate with other intelligent energies, independently of its physical containers, which theoretically could even mean independently of time and space. It's a variant of what is known as "panpsychism". That should set a few teeth gnashing.-DAVID: I don't know that 'intelligence is energy within matter', is a good description by itself.-See "Cell response to electric field" for my detailed reply to this misreading and to the rest of your post below.
 
DAVID: When we look the development of consciousness, those who think out of the box look at quantum mechanics and put consciousness and mind at a quantum level, although that is just a general description and no one seems to know just how that concept works. Thre is a general connectivity of quantum particles throughout the universe. That would fit extrasensory and psi phenomena, and perhaps panpsychism, whatever that weird term means. To redefine terms, intelligence is not consciousness. The level of intelligence is the proper use of thought and learned knowledge. It is an aspect of consciousness. If cellular matter is not conscious, but acts as if it is, then it is not intelligent, but it is using information automatically from coding it has been given by intelligence existing before the formation of the cell.-In the meantime, since you believe in immaterial life after death and an immaterial God (first-cause self-aware ENERGY which you often call a Universal INTELLIGENCE), and since no one seems to know how the "quantum" concept works, "whatever that weird term means", why won't you consider the hypothesis you've quoted above: namely, that our intelligent minds are not the products of cells, but are a form of energy which controls the cells and which may be able to act independently of them, thereby causing so-called "supernatural" phenomena?

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> dhw: In the meantime, since you believe in immaterial life after death and an immaterial God (first-cause self-aware ENERGY which you often call a Universal INTELLIGENCE), and since no one seems to know how the "quantum" concept works, "whatever that weird term means", why won't you consider the hypothesis you've quoted above: namely, that our intelligent minds are not the products of cells, but are a form of energy which controls the cells and which may be able to act independently of them, thereby causing so-called "supernatural" phenomena?-We are having a problem between us because I envision a quantum level for consciousness, for afterlife, and for God. Since we do not really understand quantum behaviour but can compute it and describe it partially, my own theory is nebulous. Your last sentence about the supernatural and the brain is within the boundries of what I imagine is the case.-But this does not travel down to the level of cells in other organs. They are automatically run by the information coded in their DNAs, by a prior event in which an intellgence created that code with that information.

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DAVID: We are having a problem between us because I envision a quantum level for consciousness, for afterlife, and for God. Since we do not really understand quantum behaviour but can compute it and describe it partially, my own theory is nebulous. Your last sentence about the supernatural and the brain is within the boundries of what I imagine is the case.-I don't think this is the problem. "Quantum", as you say, is far too nebulous to be pinned down to anything! Our common term is "energy", since we have agreed that energy is the "first cause", and if "intelligence" is NOT the product of the cells, there is at least a clear logic behind the idea that it is energy within the cells that returns to the universal energy when the cells die. But it will return with the knowledge and memories it has acquired during physical life. (NDE patients are still themselves, and they meet people they recognize and communicate with.)
 
DAVID: But this does not travel down to the level of cells in other organs. They are automatically run by the information coded in their DNAs, by a prior event in which an intelligence created that code with that information.-By "other organs" I presume you mean other than the brain, as the seat of our own "intelligence". I'm not saying that my liver and kidneys have a brain! But once there was no such thing as a brain or a liver or a kidney. And so according to my hypothesis, when the first brain, liver, kidney were invented, the "intelligence" that created them was within the originating and cooperating cells. Once the innovation is established, the cells may indeed behave like automatons, at least until they are confronted with new problems. I have continued this discussion on the "Cell response" thread, so let's confine this thread to any further thoughts on the supernatural.

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Science study supernatural? (Introduction)