Parrot consciousness? (Introduction)

by David Turell @, Sunday, January 31, 2016, 15:18 (3007 days ago)

A very long article about using parrots to help rehabilitate PTSD veterans also indicates a degree of real consciousness in parrots:-http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/31/magazine/what-does-a-parrot-know-about-ptsd.html?emc=edit_th_20160131&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=60788861&_r=0-"Still, what distinguishes the mutually assuaging bond that the veterans and parrots are forming at Serenity Park is the intelligence — at once different from ours and yet recognizable — of the nonhuman part of the equation.-"There is abundant evidence now that parrots possess cognitive capacities and sensibilities remarkably similar to our own. Alex, the now-deceased African gray parrot studied for years by his longtime companion, Dr. Irene Pepperberg, a psychology professor, is regularly held up as the paragon of parrot intelligence. His cognitive skills tested as high as those of a 5-year-old child. He mastered more than 100 words, grasped abstract concepts like absence and presence (Alex excelled at the shell game) and often gave orders to and toyed with the language of researchers who studied him, purposely giving them the wrong answers to their questions to alleviate his own boredom. Alex was also given to demonstrating what we would characterize in ourselves as ‘‘hurt feelings.'' When Pepperberg returned to Alex one morning after a three-week absence, he turned his back on her in his cage and commanded, ‘‘Come here!''-***-"He was so bright,'' Anderson told me. ‘‘I taught him to say ‘thank you.' Very anthropocentric of me, I know, but he generalized it appropriately to anything I ever did for him. He never said it randomly. He only said it when I did something for him, so it appeared to have meaning to him. There appeared to be some cognition going on, and this totally blew my mind.'' Anderson read extensively about parrots and learned that anytime she left, she should say, ‘‘I'll be right back.'' ‘‘I started saying that, and then whenever I began to put my shoes on in the morning to get ready to go to work, he'd say: ‘Right back? Right back?'?''-"Though the avian cerebrum possesses only the tiniest nub of the structures associated with mammalian intelligence, recent studies of crows and parrots have revealed that birds think and learn using an entirely different part of their brains, a kind of avian neocortex known as the medio-rostral neostriatum/hyperstriatum ventrale. In both parrots and crows, in fact, the ratio of brain to body size is similar to that of the higher primates, an encephalization quotient that yields in both species not only the usual indications of cognitive sophistication like problem-solving and tool use but also two aspects of intelligence long thought to be exclusively human: episodic memory and theory of mind, the ability to attribute mental states, like intention, desire and awareness, to yourself and to others.-"Nature, in other words, in a stunning example of parallel or convergent evolution, found an entirely other and far earlier path to complex cognition: an alien intelligence that not only links directly back to minds we've long believed to be forever lost to us, like the dinosaurs', but that can also be wounded, under duress, in the same ways our minds can."-Comment: From this article I can easily believe that parrots have a form of consciousness very parallel to ours, similar but different in kind. Birds evolved from dinosaurs and we evolved from monkeys, true convergence in evolution in that we have very different functional brains, but have some of the same aspects of consciousness. My dog shows some of the same features as the parrots. We were away several hours yesterday and very busy upon return. He acted very despondent until I cooked up one of his favorite suppers, and he returned to his usual boisterous self.

Parrot consciousness?

by dhw, Monday, February 01, 2016, 18:33 (3006 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: A very long article about using parrots to help rehabilitate PTSD veterans also indicates a degree of real consciousness in parrots:-http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/31/magazine/what-does-a-parrot-know-about-ptsd.html?emc=...-A lovely piece! Many thanks.-QUOTE: "There is abundant evidence now that parrots possess cognitive capacities and sensibilities remarkably similar to our own.”-There seem to be increasing numbers of scientists who say exactly the same about other organisms, right down to the level of the individual cell. The fact that some organisms are actually able to communicate with humans and vice versa is simply a bonus. -QUOTE: “Nature, in other words, in a stunning example of parallel or convergent evolution, found an entirely other and far earlier path to complex cognition: an alien intelligence that not only links directly back to minds we've long believed to be forever lost to us, like the dinosaurs', but that can also be wounded, under duress, in the same ways our minds can."-If you believe in evolution, and bearing in mind that we have followed other organisms onto this planet, it all makes perfect sense: our own complex cognition, sensitivity and intelligence are inherited from our earthly ancestors, no matter how much more complex our faculties have become. If they had not had these attributes, they would not have survived.-DAVID: From this article I can easily believe that parrots have a form of consciousness very parallel to ours, similar but different in kind.-As we have said before, all species (broad sense) are different in kind. A parrot/ant/elephant will think like a parrot/ant/elephant.

Parrot consciousness?

by David Turell @, Tuesday, February 02, 2016, 01:10 (3005 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: From this article I can easily believe that parrots have a form of consciousness very parallel to ours, similar but different in kind.
> 
> dhw: As we have said before, all species (broad sense) are different in kind. A parrot/ant/elephant will think like a parrot/ant/elephant.-But I am insisting on a major difference in kind at the mental/consciousness level, so great that we have to be considered very special. Of course ants don't look like elephants. Their differences at the level of mentation are not as great as ours from all others.

Parrot consciousness?

by dhw, Tuesday, February 02, 2016, 18:24 (3005 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: From this article I can easily believe that parrots have a form of consciousness very parallel to ours, similar but different in kind.-dhw: As we have said before, all species (broad sense) are different in kind. A parrot/ant/elephant will think like a parrot/ant/elephant.-DAVID: But I am insisting on a major difference in kind at the mental/consciousness level, so great that we have to be considered very special. Of course ants don't look like elephants. Their differences at the level of mentation are not as great as ours from all others.-Yes, we are special. But we should never lose sight of the similarities between ourselves and other organisms: most of what we humans do with our special intelligence serves exactly the same purpose as what they do with their intelligence: namely, to eat, to find shelter, to educate, to procreate, to survive...Of course, we have gone far, far beyond them with our science, technology, art, philosophy, but we are animals all the same, and the main point of my response was to follow the article in emphasizing the common ground,

Parrot consciousness?

by David Turell @, Tuesday, February 02, 2016, 19:20 (3005 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Of course, we have gone far, far beyond them with our science, technology, art, philosophy, but we are animals all the same, and the main point of my response was to follow the article in emphasizing the common ground,-Of course with an evolutionary process there must be common ground, but our brainy leap is far beyond what is necessary for simple survival. I emphasis the difference and you wish to recognize it but diminish its significance.

Parrot consciousness?

by dhw, Wednesday, February 03, 2016, 13:00 (3004 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Of course, we have gone far, far beyond them with our science, technology, art, philosophy, but we are animals all the same, and the main point of my response was to follow the article in emphasizing the common ground.-DAVID: Of course with an evolutionary process there must be common ground, but our brainy leap is far beyond what is necessary for simple survival. I emphasis the difference and you wish to recognize it but diminish its significance.-Its significance in relation to what? Yes, we are vastly more intelligent than our fellow animals. You want to use this as proof that we are God's purpose. Once you accept evolution, it is perfectly possible to attribute our extra intelligence to the same processes that have given dogs a sense of smell that is up to 10,000,000 times more sensitive than our own. (Some breeds have 300 million scent glands compared to our 5 million). According to you, EVERY such wonder is your God's work, so every wonder is “significant” or he would not have bothered to organize it. I would agree, though, that human intelligence is the most remarkable wonder of them all. If I believed in God, I could even believe that we are special for him because we are aware of him. But the existence of our intelligence does not prove his existence “beyond a reasonable doubt” (your favoured expression), and if he is there, it does not even begin to prove that from the very beginning of the universe, he preprogrammed or personally supervised the production of the weaverbird's nest, the dog's nose and us.

Parrot consciousness?

by David Turell @, Wednesday, February 03, 2016, 15:35 (3004 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: But the existence of our intelligence does not prove his existence “beyond a reasonable doubt” (your favoured expression), and if he is there, it does not even begin to prove that from the very beginning of the universe, he preprogrammed or personally supervised the production of the weaverbird's nest, the dog's nose and us.-Our very special intellectual capacity is only one of many clues I have listed in my two books. You know that.

Parrot consciousness?

by dhw, Thursday, February 04, 2016, 08:28 (3003 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: But the existence of our intelligence does not prove his existence “beyond a reasonable doubt” (your favoured expression), and if he is there, it does not even begin to prove that from the very beginning of the universe, he preprogrammed or personally supervised the production of the weaverbird's nest, the dog's nose and us.
-DAVID: Our very special intellectual capacity is only one of many clues I have listed in my two books. You know that.-I stuck to intelligence because that was the starting-point here. But like yourself I have frequently alluded to “clues” such as NDEs and other psychic experiences, as well as the other unsolved mysteries of consciousness in all its manifestations - emotional, aesthetic, spiritual etc. There is no disagreement between us on any of these matters, and they are all factors that keep me from being an atheist, but they are mysteries I can't solve for myself just by creating another even greater mystery.

Parrot consciousness?

by David Turell @, Thursday, February 04, 2016, 15:47 (3003 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: There is no disagreement between us on any of these matters, and they are all factors that keep me from being an atheist, but they are mysteries I can't solve for myself just by creating another even greater mystery.-You just want absolute proof. It will never exist. If you can't accept materialism's side what else is there?

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