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<title>AgnosticWeb.com - Trilobite eyes:  most complex found</title>
<link>https://agnosticweb.com/</link>
<description>An Agnostic&#039;s Brief Guide to the Universe</description>
<language>en</language>
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<title>Trilobite eyes:  most complex found (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>New studies:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.sciencealert.com/ancient-trilobites-had-crystal-eyes-and-theyre-still-a-mystery?utm_source=ScienceAlert+-+Daily+Email+Updates&amp;utm_campaign=bbeef0ab23-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&amp;utm_medium=email&amp;utm_term=0_fe5632fb09-bbeef0ab23-366098385">https://www.sciencealert.com/ancient-trilobites-had-crystal-eyes-and-theyre-still-a-mys...</a></p>
<p>&quot;...we know that trilobites had compound eyes like insects, consisting of clusters of photoreception units called ommatidia, each with its own photoreceptors and lenses. Examinations of broken sections of the fossilized lenses reveal a crystalline material made of calcite.</p>
<p>&quot;Pure calcite is transparent, so, in theory, light could penetrate it and be focused, where the photoreceptors might detect it. As with insect vision, there was likely a trade-off: Trilobites probably didn't see in high spatial resolution, but they were particularly sensitive to motion.</p>
<p>&quot;There were three kinds of these trilobite eyes. The oldest and most common is a type known as holochroal, in which small ommatidia were covered by a single corneal membrane, with the adjacent lenses in direct contact with each other.</p>
<p>&quot;The abathochroal eye is only seen in the family Eodiscidae; the small lenses are each covered by a thin cornea.</p>
<p>***</p>
<p>&quot;Finally, the schizochroal eye is only seen in the Phacopina suborder. The lenses are larger, widely separated, and each has its own cornea. They were probably, scientists believe, highly specialized.</p>
<p>&quot;The holochroal eye is the most similar to modern apposition eyes seen in some insects and crustaceans, and scientists believe they worked in a similar way. Each ommatidium operates individually, and the image the insect sees is a mosaic of all the images combined.</p>
<p>&quot;...scientists have found that schizochroal eyes have what is known as a doublet lens structure.</p>
<p>&quot;That means the lens has two layers, each with a different refractive index, that could correct for birefringence, almost like the trilobites had built-in spectacles. Lenses of this type were invented, separately, by mathematicians Rene Descartes and Christian Huygens in the 17th century, unaware that trilobites had beaten them to the punch.</p>
<p>&quot;For all our understanding of the various structures of the trilobite's eye, though, we still don't quite understand how the schizochroal eye worked, whether it was similar to an apposition eye or did something differently, as the different structure would suggest.</p>
<p>&quot;A recent study showed schizochroal eyes are far more complex than we thought, which brings us closer. Each lens was found to cover a small compound eye of its own, forming a sort of &quot;hyper-eye&quot;.</p>
<p>Comment: there are no earlier eyes!! Trilobites just simply appear. This just intensifies the meaning of the Cambrian gap.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=44250</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=44250</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jul 2023 14:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes:  most complex found (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One species has them:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210930101416.htm">https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210930101416.htm</a></p>
<p>&quot;An international research team has found an eye system in trilobites of the suborder Phacopina from the Devonian (390 million years B.P.) that is unique in the animal kingdom: each of the about 200 lenses of a hyper-facet eye spans a group of six normal compound-eye-facets, forming a compound eye itself. In addition to the hyper-facetted eyes, the researchers, led by zoologist Dr. Brigitte Schoenemann at the University of Cologne's Institute for Didactics of Biology, identified a structure that they believe to be a local neural network which directly processed the information from this special eye, and an optic nerve that carried information from the eye to the brain.</p>
<p>***</p>
<p>&quot;Most trilobites had compound eyes similar to those that are still found in insects today: a large number of hexagonal facets form the eye. There are usually eight photoreceptors under each facet. Comparable to the image of a computer screen, which is built up from individual pixels, an image is built up from the individual facets. In dragonflies, there are up to ten thousand individual facets. In order to produce a coherent image, the facets must be very close together and connected by neurons. However, in the trilobite suborder Phacopinae, the externally visible lenses of the compound eyes are much larger, up to 1 mm in diameter and more. In addition, they are set farther apart.</p>
<p>***</p>
<p>&quot;Dr Schoenemann's analysis of Wilhelm Stürmer's 40-year-old X-ray archive now suggests a different interpretation: a hyper-compound eye. Each phacopid had two eyes, one on the left and one on the right. 'Each of these eyes consisted of about 200 lenses up to 1 mm in size,' said Schoenemann. 'Under each of these lenses, in turn, at least 6 facets are set up, each of which together again makes up a small compound eye. So we have about 200 compound eyes (one under each lens) in one eye.' These sub-facets are arranged in either one ring or two rings. 'Underneath sat a foam-like nest that was probably a small neural network to process the signals,' the zoologist added. The filaments Stürmer found in fact did turn out to be nerves leading from the eyes to the trilobite's brain. Further examination with modern computer tomography confirmed these structures.</p>
<p>***</p>
<p>&quot;Wilhelm Stürmer was the head of the X-ray department at Siemens and an avid paleontologist. With a VW bus equipped as an X-ray station, he drove from quarry to quarry to X-ray fossils. Among other things, he discovered structures called filaments under the animals' eyes, which he thought were fossils of soft tissues, especially optic nerves. 'At that time, the consensus was that only bones and teeth, the hard parts of living things, could be seen in the fossils, but not the soft parts, such as intestines or nerves,' Schoenemann explained. Stürmer's heir gave the zoologist his archive. But the hobby-paleontologist had not only correctly identified the optic nerve, she notes: 'On an X-ray negative, there was an arrow in red pen pointing to the structure of the six lower facets under a main lens. This probably indicated that Stürmer had already recognized the hyper-compound eye.''</p>
<p>Comment: highly designed compound eyes, in a form now used today by insects. Illustrates the design gap in physical forms from Edicaran to Cambrian. From nothing to these eyes with no intermediate steps and able to demonstrate the nerve fibers. The gap cannot bed denied.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=39582</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=39582</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 04 Oct 2021 14:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: Tell that to Talbott and McClintock (see above). This comment does not answer the questions you have quoted. Individual programming? Or a mechanism that enables them to work out their own particular designs? If you think it&amp;apos;s the mechanism, you are back to a mental level, of whatever kind.-No I am not. It is all automatic  physico-chemical. Nothing mental except the original planning.-&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw;I see nothing wrong with faith either, except when the faithful accuse others of having the wrong faith, or criticize others because they have no faith. Chance and God are equally irrational hypotheses. I see nothing wrong with exploring other possibilities.-Neither do I, but I am convinced your third way cannot exist. Firmly, cannot!-An example of automatic molecular behavior doing a job:-http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/2013/04/01/in-nerve-cells-an-energy-source-nobody-knew-about/?WT_mc_id=SA_DD_20130401</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12600</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12600</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 01 Apr 2013 19:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DAVID: <em>The bacteria are chemical reactors. No nerve cells to create any kind of mental state or panpsychism. The chemicals around them cause a series of events to make their flagella react to move either toward, away, or stay still. This is all automatic behavior. No intentionality implied. The only way panpsychism can be present here is if we propose that a &amp;apos;mind&amp;apos; invented this system of run or tumble. I&amp;apos;ll accept that!</em>-I&amp;apos;m not going to anthropomorphize bacteria, and in my version of panpsychism I use the word &amp;quot;intelligence&amp;quot; as nebulously as you use the word &amp;quot;god&amp;quot;. The only clue that we have is different levels of intelligence which we know exist, moving from our own highly sophisticated variety downwards, and the picture I&amp;apos;ve tried to draw at all levels is of some form of &amp;quot;intelligent energy&amp;quot; directing operations within matter. You believe that free will is part of our &amp;quot;mental state&amp;quot;. Has this been &amp;quot;created&amp;quot; by the nerve cells? You also believe in an afterlife which, unlike Tony&amp;apos;s, does not involve a resurrection of the physical body. So will our surviving &amp;apos;soul&amp;apos; be without a &amp;quot;mental state&amp;quot;, since there will no longer be nerve cells to &amp;quot;create&amp;quot; it? Has the &amp;quot;mental state&amp;quot; of the God you and Tony believe in been &amp;quot;created&amp;quot; out of nerve cells?-You have quoted a passage from near the end of Stephen J. Talbott&amp;apos;s fourth essay: &amp;quot;<em>Overlooking all this, we are supposed to see ... somewhere ... blind, mindless, random, purposeless AUTOMATISMS at the ultimate explanatory root of all genetic variation leading to evolutionary change</em>.&amp;quot; Of course he means that the cells are anything but automatons. He sees them as working &amp;quot;from within&amp;quot;, with the intelligence the ancients called the <em>logos</em>. Might this not be applied to our friend the bacterium? You also quoted Barbara McClintock, for whom a future goal &amp;quot;<em>would be to determine the extent of <strong>knowledge the cell has of itself</strong>, and how it utilizes the knowledge in a &amp;apos;thoughtful&amp;apos; manner when challenged.</em>&amp;quot; Might not this too be applied to our friend the bacterium? When you say with such authority, &amp;quot;<em>This is all automatic behaviour</em>,&amp;quot; what do you know that Talbott doesn&amp;apos;t and that McClintock didn&amp;apos;t?-DAVID: <em>Wish for a third way, and keep wishing. It isn&amp;apos;t there.</em>-Not me, David. Like dear old Satchmo I have&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&amp;quot;Gone fishin&amp;apos; instead of just a-wishin&amp;apos;.&amp;quot;-*******-dhw: [Tony] wrote: &amp;quot;<em>The Genome is a chunk of code that reacts the way that it is programmed to react.&amp;quot; Does this mean your God individually programmes cells, ants, wolves, citizens, flowers and bumble bees to cooperate? Or are you saying that he invented a mechanism which would enable them all to work out their own particular designs?</em>-DAVID: <em>See my entry: Sunday, March 31, 2013, 16:13 @ David Turell. The cooperation at the cellular level is all automatic reactions by molecules, which have no idea of what they are doing. There is no mental state involved. All physico-chemical reactivity. Beautifully planned. Animals have some consciousness and that cooperation is partially instinct and partially mental planning. You cannot take cooperation at a mental level to cells!</em>-Tell that to Talbott and McClintock (see above). This comment does not answer the questions you have quoted. Individual programming? Or a mechanism that enables them to work out their own particular designs? If you think it&amp;apos;s the mechanism, you are back to a mental level, of whatever kind.&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;dhw: <em>You do a wonderful job of defending your own faith, but you have always admitted that ultimately reason is not enough ... one must take a gigantic leap. If you then criticize others for leaping in a different direction, or for not leaping at all, you simply enter the realm of pots and kettles.</em>-DAVID: <em>My problem is I think the &amp;apos;leap in another direction&amp;apos; is not a leap at all but a nebulous hope that there is some weird sort of &amp;apos;third way&amp;apos; to get around the requirement of a leap across the chasm. There is still only chance or design. If you reject chance only design is left. But inventing a third way hasn&amp;apos;t happened. All of the scientists who point out the problem stop after they have pointed it out. There is nothing suggested after the stop, except to say &amp;apos;we have a problem&amp;apos;. &amp;apos;We&amp;apos; don&amp;apos;t, they do because the next logical step is not allowed in their minds. I see nothing wrong with faith.</em>-I see nothing wrong with faith either, except when the faithful accuse others of having the wrong faith, or criticize others because they have no faith. Chance and God are equally irrational hypotheses. I see nothing wrong with exploring other possibilities.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12598</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12598</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 01 Apr 2013 17:58:03 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>dhw: You do a wonderful job of defending your own faith, but you have always admitted that ultimately reason is not enough ... one must take a gigantic leap. If you then criticize others for leaping in a different direction, or for not leaping at all, you simply enter the realm of pots and kettles.-My problem is I think the &amp;apos;leap in another direction&amp;apos; is not a leap at all but a nebulous hope that there is some weird sort of &amp;apos;third way&amp;apos; to get around the requirement of a leap across the chasm. There is still only chance or design. If you reject chance only design is left. But inventing a third way hasn&amp;apos;t happened. All of the scientists who point out the problem stop after they have pointed it out. There is nothing suggested after the stop, except to say &amp;apos;we have a problem&amp;apos;. &amp;apos;We&amp;apos; don&amp;apos;t, they do because the next logical step is not allowed in their minds. I see nothing wrong with faith.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12596</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12596</guid>
<pubDate>Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David recommended an essay by Stephen L. Talbott, which demonstrates the &amp;quot;<strong>illusion of randomness</strong>&amp;quot;, and which David took to be evidence for Intelligent Design. Talbott himself, however, is an opponent of ID<img src="images/smilies/biggrin.png" alt=":-D" />hw (quoting Stephen L. Talbott): &amp;quot;<em>Although the word has its legitimate uses, you will not find me speaking of design, simply because &amp;#226;&amp;#128;&amp;#148; as I&amp;apos;ve made abundantly clear in previous articles &amp;#226;&amp;#128;&amp;#148; organisms cannot be understood as having been designed, machine-like, whether by an engineer-God or a Blind Watchmaker elevated to god-like status. If organisms participate in a higher life, it is a participation that works from within &amp;#226;&amp;#128;&amp;#148; at a deep level the ancients recognized as that of the logos informing all things. It is a sharing of the springs of life and being, not a mere receptivity to some sort of external mechanical tinkering modeled anthropocentrically on human engineering</em>.&amp;quot;-DAVID: <em>This is the same cop out Nagel uses. There is a nebulous third way ,a &amp;apos;logos&amp;apos; at the center of life that is just there all by itself, out of nowhere. What is that &amp;apos;logos that informs all things&amp;apos; and where did it come from? Again out of thin air, an uncaused cause? Again horse manure. A theory that stops short of any conclusion, after presenting all that reasonable logic and coming to the edge of the precipice. A third way or no way!</em>-It must be very frustrating for you that so many of the scientists you quote in support of your God theory turn out to be opponents of it. You must wonder why they find it so hard to see your carefully hidden God. Strangely perhaps, I wouldn&amp;apos;t dream of rejecting your theory as vehemently as Talbott does. I don&amp;apos;t believe it, but I don&amp;apos;t reject it (= disbelieve it) because however unlikely all the explanatory hypotheses seem, one of them must be close to the truth. However, I really can&amp;apos;t allow you to get away with the above. What you have written describes your own hypothesis perfectly:-&amp;quot;There is a nebulous way, a god at the center of life that is just there all by itself, out of nowhere. What is that &amp;apos;God that informs all things&amp;apos; and where did it come from? Again out of thin air, an uncaused cause?&amp;quot;-You do a wonderful job of defending your own faith, but you have always admitted that ultimately reason is not enough ... one must take a gigantic leap. If you then criticize others for leaping in a different direction, or for not leaping at all, you simply enter the realm of pots and kettles.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12592</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12592</guid>
<pubDate>Sun, 31 Mar 2013 15:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>david: A third way or no way!- Wishful thinking to avoid choosing. A third way is wishful thinking by those who cannot imagine as a First Cause a god of any sort, and for some reason are not willing to venture in that direction. Bacterial decisions are simply chemical as this article shows. The flagellum has been studied until there is little left to reveal. Bacteria can tumble in place or run in a direction. It all depends upon what their chemical sensors detect. The bacteria are chemical reactors. No nerve cells to create any kind of mental state or panpsychism. The chemicals around them cause a series of events to make their flagella react to move either toward, away, or stay still. This is all automatic behavior. No intentionality implied. The only way panpsychism can be present here is if we propose that a &amp;apos;mind&amp;apos; invented this system of run or tumble. I&amp;apos;ll accept that! -http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001480-And a very successful invention it is, since bacteria have been around for about 3.5 billion years and can live in places we humans cannot even consider. And we can think and plan and invent nutty ideas like panpsychism as a way out from the only two possibilties for evolution reaching this argumentative point: chance or design. Wish for a third way, and keep wishing. It isn&amp;apos;t there.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12590</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12590</guid>
<pubDate>Sun, 31 Mar 2013 15:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&amp;apos;ll respond to the rest of your post later..-&gt;DHW: I&amp;apos;ve never opposed the concept of a first cause. What seems unreasonable, and therefore unimaginable to me, is the concept of first-cause energy being a single, super-colossal, eternally and fully self-aware, <strong>undesigned mind inexplicably possessing all the information there could possibly be, whereas our puny minds require a designer</strong>. That seems as unlikely to me as mindless first-cause energy hitting on a magic formula to create a functioning solar system and the mechanisms of life and evolution. If you can believe in either of those hypotheses, you might just as well believe in my &amp;apos;panpsychist&amp;apos; proposal. Is it any more unreasonable than yours?-A few points here:-1: One mind possessing all information is not a stretch when you think that &amp;apos;in the beginning&amp;apos; there was so much less information to possess! -2: Your mind is based on biochemistry with the addition of energy. Because of the physical components and required support system it is greatly more complex and yet more inefficient than a mind made of pure energy. That would be why your mind requires a designer, but the mind made of pure energy would not. -The idea of cells having some level of intelligence or awareness is not something that I really disagree with. But trying to extrapolate that idea backwards to the creation of everything is just too much of a stretch because of what goes back that far is at once so mind boggling in its complexity and so elegant at the same time. I see the design of a single creative genius, because anything else would have created discrepancies that would unravel it all. If it were left to random chance or willy nilly individuals choosing to perhaps cooperate and perhaps not, none of use would be having this discussion. There is a near impossibly strong underlying theme to this orchestra. Just because I can not see the composer does not mean I can not read the score and recognize that it has been written by a single hand.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12586</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12586</guid>
<pubDate>Sun, 31 Mar 2013 04:29:03 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>Balance_Maintained</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>dhw: &amp;quot;<em>Although the word has its legitimate uses, you will not find me speaking of design, simply because &amp;#226;&amp;#128;&amp;#148; as I&amp;apos;ve made abundantly clear in previous articles &amp;#226;&amp;#128;&amp;#148; organisms cannot be understood as having been designed, machine-like, whether by an engineer-God or a Blind Watchmaker elevated to god-like status. If organisms participate in a higher life, it is a participation that works from within &amp;#226;&amp;#128;&amp;#148; at a deep level the ancients recognized as that of the logos informing all things. It is a sharing of the springs of life and being, not a mere receptivity to some sort of external mechanical tinkering modeled anthropocentrically on human engineering</em>.&amp;quot;-This is the same cop out Nagel uses. There is a nebulous third way ,a &amp;apos;logos&amp;apos; at the center of life that is just there all by itself, out of nowhere. What is that &amp;apos;logos that informs all things&amp;apos; and where did it come from? Again out of thin air, an uncaused cause? Again horse manure. A theory that stops short of any conclusion, after presenting all that reasonable logic and coming to the edge of the precipice. A third way or no way!</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12584</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12584</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 30 Mar 2013 21:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, the article you referred us to just a few days ago, and to which I responded on 26 March, is:-<em><a href="http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/evolution-and-the-illusion-of-randomness">http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/evolution-and-the-illusion-of-randomness</a></em>-I can&amp;apos;t find your original entry either, but you recommended that we read the appendix (Barbara McClintock) and referred to it again on 24 March at 20.23 as your entry &amp;quot;<em>just preceding this</em>&amp;quot;. The whole essay brilliantly elucidates why randomness in evolution is an illusion.-DAVID: <em>Talbott did not write this essay to drive folks to God, but to demand that we shift our attention to the developing overall picture. As for his theology, I have no clue, but his essay strongly supports a belief in God.</em>-Your first sentence is spot on. Your second sentence completely ignores the fact (not even a &amp;quot;clue&amp;quot;) that he explicitly rejects the notion of ID. Tony has used the expression &amp;quot;willful disbelief&amp;quot;, and your statement is the clearest possible example. Please read Talbott&amp;apos;s rejection once more:&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&amp;quot;<em>Although the word has its legitimate uses, you will not find me speaking of design, simply because &amp;#226;&amp;#128;&amp;#148; as I&amp;apos;ve made abundantly clear in previous articles &amp;#226;&amp;#128;&amp;#148; organisms cannot be understood as having been designed, machine-like, whether by an engineer-God or a Blind Watchmaker elevated to god-like status. If organisms participate in a higher life, it is a participation that works from within &amp;#226;&amp;#128;&amp;#148; at a deep level the ancients recognized as that of the logos informing all things. It is a sharing of the springs of life and being, not a mere receptivity to some sort of external mechanical tinkering modeled anthropocentrically on human engineering</em>.&amp;quot;-You can of course use his essays as evidence for your own hypothesis, and as an agnostic I accept the possibility that your interpretation may be correct. But if you quote people like Hoyle and Talbott and Nagel and Shapiro to bolster your case, you should at least have some respect for their own views. These men are not idiots. They observe what you observe, but they do not draw the same conclusions. This in itself is a perfect illustration that your faith is &amp;quot;<em>speculation based on observations that could mean something else entirely</em>&amp;quot;, as Tony says of evolution.-DAVID: <em>In her 1983 Nobel address, geneticist Barbara McClintock cited various ways an organism responds to stress by, among other things, altering its own genome.</em> &amp;quot;<em>Some sensing mechanism must be present in these instances to alert the cell to imminent danger,&amp;quot; she said, adding that &amp;quot;a goal for the future would be to determine the extent of knowledge the cell has of itself, and how it utilizes this knowledge in a &amp;apos;thoughtful&amp;apos; manner when challenged.&amp;quot;</em>-Could you possibly find a clearer description of &amp;quot;the intelligent genome&amp;quot; ... or in this case, my original term &amp;quot;the intelligent cell&amp;quot; ... even going so far as to talk about the cell&amp;apos;s possible knowledge of itself?  -DAVID: <em>Subsequent research has shown how far-seeing she was.</em>-It would appear that the &amp;quot;panpsychist&amp;quot; hypothesis is not so way out after all.&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>Random chance? Horse manure!</em>-Agreed. Proof of a divine designer? Horse manure! Ask Hoyle, Talbott, Nagel, Shapiro.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12583</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12583</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 30 Mar 2013 19:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TONY: <em>Convergence is even harder to explain in common evolution or your intelligent genome theory. Two independent intelligences arriving to the same precise solution to a given problem without contact between them is extremely unlikely, verging on impossible.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;There&amp;apos;s a useful summary with examples on Wikipedia, under &amp;quot;<strong>Convergence evolution</strong>&amp;quot;. This is the reference, but I can&amp;apos;t get it to work! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergence_evolution-TONY: <em>See, the problem with your intelligent genome is that it presupposes evolution from a common ancestor is true. There simply is no evidence of that beyond speculation based on observations that could mean something else entirely.&amp;quot;</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;dhw: [...] <em>I understand your point of view. But when I apply it to your God hypothesis, you seem to find it difficult to grasp (even labelling it &amp;quot;willful disbelief&amp;quot;). I wonder why.</em>-TONY: <em>I labeled it willful disbelief because that is what it is.</em>-After all this time you clearly have no idea why I cannot share your speculative and irrational faith. I&amp;apos;ll keep trying, Tony. We agnostics are very patient. See my response to David below, for yet another summary.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;  &amp;#13;&amp;#10;TONY: <em>You have untold complexity all around you working in exquisite harmony, complexity of the type that we have NEVER seen appearing spontaneously without the intervention of an intelligence, and yet you insist that it happened. Whether you apply that random chance at the start of the universe or the start of life is irrelevant because you are starting at the basis of random chance instead of purposeful intelligence.</em>-I have answered this under &amp;quot;<strong>Evolution of Intelligence</strong>&amp;quot;, and must protest that you are totally misrepresenting my whole &amp;apos;panpsychist&amp;apos; hypothesis, which from the very start I have painstakingly, patiently, heroically, clearly explained DISPENSES WITH BOTH GOD AND RANDOM CHANCE, both of which I find equally unlikely. Reject it by all means, but do not misrepresent it. Meanwhile, if the complexities of our minds could not appear without the intervention of an intelligence, how did a mind infinitely more complex than our own manage to appear without the intervention of an intelligence?&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;TONY: <em>Humanity continues to invent new theories that completely ignore the reality of what they see because the thought of something that immense, that powerful scares them stupid and makes them feel weak and ineffectual.</em>-According to you and David, God hides himself. I&amp;apos;m not alone in thinking that maybe we can&amp;apos;t see him &amp;apos;cos he ain&amp;apos;t there! The reality I see is a breathtaking range of life, beauty, order, cooperation, love....of death, suffering, disorder etc. If there is a God, perhaps that&amp;apos;s what he wants, and of course you can&amp;apos;t have good without bad. On the other hand, the whole wonderful mixture might have come about through multiple &amp;quot;intelligences&amp;quot; following their own nice or nasty agendas, or it might all be one gigantic accident. Your assumption that people don&amp;apos;t accept your own self-confessed irrationalism (faith being irrational by definition) because they feel scared and weak says rather more about your view of human nature than it does about the case for God.-Dhw: <em>No doubt many innovations were not &amp;quot;from necessity&amp;quot;, and maybe evolution itself was not necessary, since bacteria have survived to this day.</em>-TONY: <em>Which innovations, in particular, were not a necessity?</em>-Since bacteria have survived, maybe all. But I&amp;apos;m suggesting there may be two possible causes of innovation: one the need for survival (linked more to adaptation), and the other the result of the genome inventing something new because a changed environment allows for further experimentation. Freddy (&amp;quot;Mr Conventional&amp;quot;) Fish can go on swimming in the sea, but the sudden appearance of an island might encourage Fergus (&amp;quot;Watch-Me-Daddy&amp;quot;) Fish to try his luck on land, though he doesn&amp;apos;t have to. And behold, there were lungs and legs...-TONY: <em>Life can not come from non-life without the not insignificant requirement of initial information and energy.</em>-No disagreement from me. It fits in very nicely with my &amp;quot;panpsychist&amp;quot; hypothesis.-DAVID: [dhw] <em>has told us he cannot imagine a God as first cause, even though he accepts the first cause as reasonable.</em>-I&amp;apos;ve never opposed the concept of a first cause. What seems unreasonable, and therefore unimaginable to me, is the concept of first-cause energy being a single, super-colossal, eternally and fully self-aware, undesigned mind inexplicably possessing all the information there could possibly be, whereas our puny minds require a designer. That seems as unlikely to me as mindless first-cause energy hitting on a magic formula to create a functioning solar system and the mechanisms of life and evolution. If you can believe in either of those hypotheses, you might just as well believe in my &amp;apos;panpsychist&amp;apos; proposal. Is it any more unreasonable than yours?</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12582</link>
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<pubDate>Sat, 30 Mar 2013 19:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Just a reminder, life started this complex. It had to. Anything less is not living. Therefore the intelligence that did the score for the orchestra of life had to be that complex, from the beginning! If by pansychism you are using a definition of intelligence by dribs and drabs, here and there, at any stage in the development of life, then your theory doesn&amp;apos;t fit Talbott&amp;apos;s essay. Talbott did not write this essay to drive folks to God, but to demand that we shift our attention to the developing overall picture. As for his theology, I have no clue, but hiss essay strongly supports a belief in God.-This article on archaea supports my point of view:-http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2013-03/uota-uot032713.php</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12580</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12580</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 30 Mar 2013 14:24:02 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>David: Talbott has made the point that the molecules of the genome are a finely tuned orchestra, and that Watson and Crick and those that followed had no sense of imagination, a common problem in today&amp;apos;s scientists grounded in methodological reductionist materialism. The complexity is truly staggering. It is an orchestra of molecules all acting under physico-chemical controls. So far the essence of life, the conductor, is not seen, but felt by looking/watching  all the moving parts. There may not be a conductor on site in the individual cell, but the essence of life as created by the conductor&amp;apos;score! The victory of life as in Beethoven&amp;apos;s Fifth. Only a genius could have directed the &amp;apos;score&amp;apos; of life&amp;apos;s music. Talbott was not defining any version of panpsychism. He was directing us at the scored complexity of life, to my mind directing us to appreciate the planning and not miss the forest for the trees. Both Tony and I are trying to provide you with the proper logical compass to see the intelligence behind the plan.-&amp;#13;&amp;#10;Exactly! I wonder if it is my back ground in music that makes this so painfully obvious to me..If one note is off, or one instrument is missing, it changes everything. -&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt;David: Just a reminder, life started this complex. It had to. Anything less is not living. Therefore the intelligence that did the score for the orchestra of life had to be that complex, from the beginning! -Yes! Absolutely!</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12575</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12575</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 30 Mar 2013 03:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>Balance_Maintained</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My admonition is read all of the essays to fully see the point. This from the end of the fourth essay:-&amp;quot;Overlooking all this, we are supposed to see &amp;#226;&amp;#128;&amp;#148; somewhere &amp;#226;&amp;#128;&amp;#148; blind, mindless, random, purposeless automatisms at the ultimate explanatory root of all genetic variation leading to evolutionary change.&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;The situation calls to mind a widely circulated cartoon by Sidney Harris, which shows two scientists in front of a blackboard on which a body of theory has been traced out with the usual tangle of symbols, arrows, equations, and so on. But there&amp;apos;s a gap in the reasoning at one point, filled by the words, &amp;quot;Then a miracle occurs.&amp;quot; And the one scientist is saying to the other, &amp;quot;I think you should be more explicit here in step two.&amp;quot;&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;In the case of evolution, I picture Dennett and Dawkins filling the blackboard with their vivid descriptions of living, highly regulated, coordinated, integrated, and intensely meaningful biological processes, and then inserting a small, mysterious gap in the middle, along with the words, &amp;quot;Here something random occurs.&amp;quot;&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;<strong>This &amp;quot;something random&amp;quot; looks every bit as wishful as the appeal to a miracle.</strong> It is the central miracle in a gospel of meaninglessness, a &amp;quot;Randomness of the gaps,&amp;quot; demanding an extraordinarily blind faith. At the very least, we have a right to ask, &amp;quot;Can you be a little more explicit here?&amp;quot; A faith that fills the ever-shrinking gaps in our knowledge of the organism with a potent meaninglessness capable of transforming everything else into an illusion is a faith that could benefit from some minimal grounding. <strong>Otherwise, we can hardly avoid suspecting that the importance of randomness in the minds of the faithful is due to its being the only presumed scrap of a weapon in a compulsive struggle to deny all the obvious meaning of our lives.</strong> (my bolds)-&amp;#13;&amp;#10;Supplement: Natural Genome Remodeling&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;In her 1983 Nobel address, geneticist Barbara McClintock cited various ways an organism responds to stress by, among other things, altering its own genome. &amp;quot;Some sensing mechanism must be present in these instances to alert the cell to imminent danger,&amp;quot; she said, adding that &amp;quot;a goal for the future would be to determine the extent of knowledge the cell has of itself, and how it utilizes this knowledge in a &amp;apos;thoughtful&amp;apos; manner when challenged.&amp;quot;-&amp;#13;&amp;#10; Subsequent research has shown how far-seeing she was.&amp;quot;-&amp;#13;&amp;#10;Random chance? Horse manure!</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12573</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12573</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 29 Mar 2013 21:59:49 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>dhw: Of course there are many versions of panpsychism, which is why I put mine in inverted commas. I note that you have not yet commented on a remark by another of your recommended authors, Stephen L. Talbott, who having delved deep into the complexities of the genome, writes: &amp;quot;...you will not find me speaking of design, simply because [...] organisms cannot be understood as having been designed, machine-like, whether by an engineer-God or a Blind Watchmaker elevated to god-like status. If organisms participate in a higher life, it is a participation that works <strong>from within</strong>...&amp;quot; (see my post of 26 March at 14.46).-Talbott has made the point that the molecules of the genome are a finely tuned orchestra, and that Watson and Crick and those that followed had no sense of imagination, a common problem in today&amp;apos;s scientists grounded in methodological reductionist materialism. The complexity is truly staggering. It is an orchestra of molecules all acting under physico-chemical controls. So far the essence of life, the conductor, is not seen, but felt by looking/watching  all the moving parts. There may not be a conductor on site in the individual cell, but the essence of life as created by the conductor&amp;apos;score! The victory of life as in Beethoven&amp;apos;s Fifth. Only a genius could have directed the &amp;apos;score&amp;apos; of life&amp;apos;s music. Talbott was not defining any version of panpsychism. He was directing us at the scored complexity of life, to my mind directing us to appreciate the planning and not miss the forest for the trees. Both Tony and I are trying to provide you with the proper logical compass to see the intelligence behind the plan.-Just a reminder, life started this complex. It had to. Anything less is not living. Therefore the intelligence that did the score for the orchestra of life had to be that complex, from the beginning! If by pansychism you are using a definition of intelligence by dribs and drabs, here and there, at any stage in the development of life, then your theory doesn&amp;apos;t fit Talbott&amp;apos;s essay. Talbott did not write this essay to drive folks to God, but to demand that we shift our attention to the developing overall picture. As for his theology, I have no clue, but hiss essay strongly supports a belief in God.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12572</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12572</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 29 Mar 2013 21:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; Tony: Convergence is even harder to explain in common evolution or your intelligent genome theory. Two independent intelligences arriving to the same precise solution to a given problem without contact between them is extremely unlikely, verging on impossible. There was a theory about that at one point, but I can not remember the name of it. -Simon Conway Morris bases an entire book on convergence to show teleology: &amp;quot;Life&amp;apos;s Solution&amp;quot;.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; Tony: I don&amp;apos;t. As I keep stating repeatedly, every one of these theories, including mine, requires faith. However, there is no reason that your faith should not be based on sound reason and logic. I labeled it willful disbelief because that is what it is. -Dhw has told us why. To paraphrase him, he has told us he cannot imagine a God as first cause, even though he accepts the idea of a first cause as reasonable. I cannot imagine God either, nor can anyone else, but He is a logical endpoint to reach from all we know.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt;  &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &gt;DHW:  Clearly I&amp;apos;ve missed something here.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; Tony: Life can not come from non-life without the not insignificant requirement of initial information and energy.-Exactly what was missed.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12566</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12566</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 29 Mar 2013 14:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dhw: <em>Although the &amp;quot;panpsychist&amp;quot; alternative I have offered naturally demands a similar leap of faith, at least it has the merit (in my eyes) of NOT depending on chance or on an unknowable God.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>Your &amp;apos;panpsychist alternative&amp;apos; has no basis as a proposal from what we know about the genome of life. The leap it requires is much more than faith. It would mean simplifying all of organic chemistry. The genome contains information which drives the chemicals of life to act like automatons, but the chemicals have no thoughts of their own as your term implies.</em>-DAVID (re common descent): <em>DNA is a common denominator, but I theorize that it contains pre-planned codes we haven&amp;apos;t found yet.</em>-In the context of the genome, you&amp;apos;re happy to theorize about things not known. May I do the same? My alternative is based on many analogies, and one of them is the brain. My &amp;quot;panpsychist&amp;quot; alternative suggests that it is the intelligent energy within the brain that drives the chemicals. You believe in an afterlife, in which the mind survives the death of the physical body. What could this mind be, if not intelligent energy? By the same token, I&amp;apos;m suggesting that intelligent energy within the genome drives the chemicals. I must confess I&amp;apos;m now mystified, since you appeared to agree to this a week ago:-dhw: ...<em>since God&amp;apos;s purpose was &amp;quot;inventive life&amp;quot;, he left the course of evolution in the &amp;quot;hands&amp;quot; of his intelligent invention ... apparently preprogrammed to experiment and take its own decisions (much like us humans, then!). [He] sat back watching while the intelligent genome produced its own inventions...</em>-DAVID: <em>A good synopsis of my view of evolution</em>.-Have you changed your mind?-DAVID: <em>When an organism becomes uncomfortable in its environment, by which I mean it has chemical signals of difficulty in pursuing living, the genome chemically recognizes this problem and begins to arrange for epigenetic adaptations, all following a built-in coded mechanism in the genome.</em> -The essential driving force of evolution, I suggest, is not adaptation but innovation ... otherwise life would have stayed at bacterial level. This means invention on a grand scale, exactly as you indicated with your phrase &amp;quot;inventive life&amp;quot;: new organs, new combinations, new organisms....These stem from the genome. A week ago you appeared to agree that &amp;quot;the intelligent genome&amp;quot; experiments and takes its own decisions, but now you say it&amp;apos;s an automaton.&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>This is Shapiro&amp;apos;s point. It is also why he is still an atheist. He is still willing to accept this degree of complexity from chance mutational changes. And it is why the ID people love him, since they cannot accept the concept of chance for this much complexity. Nagel would jump at your &amp;apos;third way&amp;apos; pan-psychism, but he knows it is not reasonable. The issue remains, unsolved for those who won&amp;apos;t accept God, as the source of the information.</em>-And the issue remains unsolved for those who won&amp;apos;t accept chance (Shapiro is not the only believer) or any other unlikely hypothesis (there are many others, including my little offering). Out of interest, I googled Nagel and panpsychism, and found several entries. Here is a quote from- <a href="http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Panpsychism-&amp;quot;Thomas">http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Panpsychism-&amp;quot;Thomas</a> Nagel formulated a modern argument for panpsychism, claiming that mental processes cannot be reduced to physical matter and that if physical properties of matter are discovered by inference from other physical properties, then the same must be true for mental properties. So matter must have some &amp;quot;mental component&amp;quot;.&amp;quot;-Of course there are many versions of panpsychism, which is why I put mine in inverted commas. I note that you have not yet commented on a remark by another of your recommended authors, Stephen L. Talbott, who having delved deep into the complexities of the genome, writes: &amp;quot;...you will not find me speaking of design, simply because [...] organisms cannot be understood as having been designed, machine-like, whether by an engineer-God or a Blind Watchmaker elevated to god-like status. If organisms participate in a higher life, it is a participation that works <strong>from within</strong>...&amp;quot; (see my post of 26 March at 14.46).-DAVID: <em>I believe your problem is that you have just a vague knowledge of biochemistry, so you do not see the depth of the complexity. I think Shapiro is trapped because he is committed to methodologic reductionist naturalism in his role as a University professor.</em>-Presumably, then, all biochemists believe in Intelligent Design by God. Any that say they don&amp;apos;t are only pretending in order to protect their careers. Now there&amp;apos;s a theory for you!</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12562</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12562</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 29 Mar 2013 09:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; OK, you theorize that it was all pre-planned, and I theorize that it evolved without a plan. <strong>No doubt many innovations were not &amp;quot;<em>from necessity</em>&amp;quot;, and maybe evolution itself was not necessary, since bacteria have survived to this day.</strong> But when conditions allowed, the intelligent genome produced its own inventions ... all part of the &amp;quot;<em>open-ended experimentation</em>&amp;quot; that characterizes the higgledy-piggledy bush of evolution. Every innovation you list can just as easily have been the product of the intelligent genome ... whether invented by God or not - without a divine &amp;quot;push&amp;quot;. After 3.8 billion years of evolution, the energy within changing materials could have learned all it needed to know for its increasingly complicated experiments.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt;  -I wanted to dig a little deeper into this. Which innovations, in particular, were not a necessity? Bear in mind that you can not look simply at the individual species, but have to consider the biosphere as a whole.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12561</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=12561</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 29 Mar 2013 09:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>Balance_Maintained</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>DHW: I&amp;apos;ve covered this above, in the sentence about interbreeding, but in any case there is no reason why the &amp;quot;intelligent genome&amp;quot; in multiple organisms exposed to the same environment should not produce the same innovation. The process of &amp;quot;convergence&amp;quot; has frequently been observed, for instance in desert plants even on different continents that come up with the same solutions. Similarly several Maelestes gobienses, suddenly finding themselves in changed conditions, might well simultaneously provide themselves with a doggy innovation. Has anyone ever observed God creating a breeding pair?-Convergence is even harder to explain in common evolution or your intelligent genome theory. Two independent intelligences arriving to the same precise solution to a given problem without contact between them is extremely unlikely, verging on impossible. There was a theory about that at one point, but I can not remember the name of it. -&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: <em>Finally, back to </em>(quoting Tony): <em>[See, the problem with your intelligent genome is that it presupposes evolution from a common ancestor is true.] There simply is no evidence of that beyond speculation based on observations that <strong>could mean something else entirely</strong>.</em>&amp;quot; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: <em>You have applied this argument to the &amp;quot;intelligent genome&amp;quot; hypothesis, and I understand your point of view. But when I apply it to your God hypothesis, you seem to find it difficult to grasp (even labelling it &amp;quot;willful disbelief&amp;quot;). I wonder why.</em>-&amp;#13;&amp;#10;I don&amp;apos;t. As I keep stating repeatedly, every one of these theories, including mine, requires faith. However, there is no reason that your faith should not be based on sound reason and logic. I labeled it willful disbelief because that is what it is. You have untold complexity all around you working in exquisite harmony, complexity of the type that we have NEVER seen appearing spontaneously without the intervention of an intelligence, and yet you insist that it happened. Whether you apply that random chance at the start of the universe or the start of life is irrelevant because you are starting at the basis of random chance instead of purposeful intelligence. Humanity continues to invent new theories that completely ignore the reality of what they see because the thought of something that immense, that powerful scares them stupid and makes them feel weak and ineffectual. - &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt;DHW: Although the &amp;quot;panpsychist&amp;quot; alternative I have offered naturally demands a similar leap of faith, at least it has the merit (in my eyes) of NOT depending on chance or on an unknowable God. I&amp;apos;m not sure what your final comments signify, other than the fact what without life, any theory about life can have no explanatory power. Without a universe any theory about the universe can have no explanatory power either. Clearly I&amp;apos;ve missed something here.-Life can not come from non-life without the not insignificant requirement of initial information and energy.</p>
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<pubDate>Fri, 29 Mar 2013 09:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>Balance_Maintained</dc:creator>
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<title>Trilobite eyes (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>dhw: Although the &amp;quot;panpsychist&amp;quot; alternative I have offered naturally demands a similar leap of faith, at least it has the merit (in my eyes) of NOT depending on chance or on an unknowable God. -Your &amp;apos;panpsychist alternative&amp;apos; has no basis as a proposal from what we know about the genome of life. The leap it requires is much more than faith. It would mean simplifying all of organic chemistry. The genome contains information which drives the chemicals of life to act like automatons, but the chemicals have no thoughts of their own as your term inplies. When an organism becomes uncomfortable in its environment, by which I mean it has chemical signals of difficulty in pursuing living, the genome chemically recognizes this problem and begins to arrange for epigenetic adaptations, all following a built-in coded mechanism in the genome. This is Shapiro&amp;apos;s point. It is also why he is still an atheist. He is still willing to accept this degree of complexity from chance mutational changes. And it is why the ID people love him, since they cannnot accept the concept of chance for this much complexity.- Nagel would jump at your &amp;apos;third way&amp;apos; pan-psychism, but he knows it is not reasonable. The issue remains, unsolved for those who won&amp;apos;t accept God, as the source of the information. Only a thinking mind can create complex information or invent a code like DNA! I believe your problem is that you have just a vague knowledge of biochemistry, so you do not see the depth of the complexity. I think Shapiro is trapped because he is committed to methodologic reductionist naturalism in his role as a University professor.</p>
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<pubDate>Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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