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<title>AgnosticWeb.com - More Denton: unlikely transitions</title>
<link>https://agnosticweb.com/</link>
<description>An Agnostic&#039;s Brief Guide to the Universe</description>
<language>en</language>
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<title>More Denton: unlikely transitions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tiktaalik revisited showing transition skeletal changes:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.newscientist.com/article/2360024-spine-of-early-crawling-fish-was-becoming-more-like-a-land-animals/">https://www.newscientist.com/article/2360024-spine-of-early-crawling-fish-was-becoming-...</a></p>
<p>&quot;A CT scan of a fossil of Tiktaalik, one of the first fish to crawl on land, has revealed more features of its body that are intermediate between fish and land-dwelling animals. In particular, they show that its fins were becoming connected to its spine, a feature of limbs in land vertebrates, but not of fins in fish.</p>
<p>***</p>
<p>&quot;In land vertebrates, the hind legs are connected to the spine via the pelvis. In fish, the equivalent of the pelvis is positioned away from the spine with no direct connection to it. In Tiktaalik, the shape of the vertebrae and ribs suggest that the pelvis was closer to the spine and that there was a soft tissue connection between the pelvis and spine, says Stuart.</p>
<p>&quot;Other features, such as the shape of Tiktaalik’s ribs, are also intermediate, says Stuart.</p>
<p>“'It is a very nice looking piece of research,” says Martin Brazeau at Imperial College London, who wasn’t part of the team. “A connection between the vertebral column and the pelvis is one of those things that’s neither explicitly expected or excluded based on where Tiktaalik sits in the evolutionary tree.'”</p>
<p>Comment: a valuable transitional form. we should expect to find more examples.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=43380</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=43380</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2023 17:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: another new book (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Humans were destined to arrive:</p>
<p><a href="https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/michael-dentons-new-book-nature-is-fine-tuned-for-human-existence/">https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/michael-dentons-new-book-nature-is-fine-...</a></p>
<p>From the publisher:</p>
<p>&quot;For years, leading scientists and science popularizers have insisted humans are nothing special in the cosmic scheme of things. In this important and provocative new book, renowned biologist Michael Denton argues otherwise. According to Denton, the cosmos is stunningly fit not just for cellular life, not just for carbon-based animal life, and not even just for air-breathing animals, but especially for bipedal, land-roving, technology-pursuing creatures of our general physiological design. In short, the cosmos is specifically fit for creatures like us. Drawing on discoveries from a myriad of scientific fields, Denton masterfully documents how contemporary science has revived humanity’s special place in nature. “The human person as revealed by modern science is no contingent assemblage of elements, an irrelevant afterthought of cosmic evolution,” Denton writes. “Rather, our destiny was inscribed in the light of stars and the properties of atoms since the beginning. Now we know that all nature sings the song of man. Our seeming exile from nature is over. We now know what the medieval scholars only believed, that the underlying rationality of nature is indeed ‘manifest in human flesh.’ And with this revelation the… delusion of humankind’s irrelevance on the cosmic stage has been revoked.'”</p>
<p>Quotes from Denton:</p>
<p>ID comment: &quot;a vast suite of chemical and physical parameters were precisely set. These parameters are “uniquely fit” for creatures like ourselves, as Denton shows: </p>
<p>&quot;[O]ur existence as energy-demanding active air-breathing terrestrial organisms critically depends on a wildly improbable ensemble of natural environmental fitness comprising various chemical and physical laws as well as the properties of specific molecules such as oxygen and CO2 and specific elements such as the transition metals, properties that must be almost exactly as they are.&quot;</p>
<p>&quot;The exquisitely fine-tuned ensembles of environmental fitness described here, each enabling a vital aspect of our physiological design, amount to nothing less than a primal blueprint for our being, written into the fabric of reality since the moment of creation, providing compelling evidence that we do indeed, after all, occupy a central place in the great cosmic drama of being.</p>
<p>&quot;This is the miracle of man. We are not positioned in the spatial center of the universe as was believed before Copernicus, but what we have found over the past two centuries confirms the deep intuition of the medieval Christian scholars who believed that “in the cognition of nature in all her depths, man finds himself.”</p>
<p>Comment: Denton is a Ph.D. &amp; M.D. Like Adler and Schroeder he is one of the authorities who shapes my views</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=41296</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=41296</guid>
<pubDate>Wed, 11 May 2022 15:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: A new book (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yet another book I have not read; the review:</p>
<p><a href="https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/karsten-pultz-review-of-dentons-the-miracle-of-the-cell/">https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/karsten-pultz-review-of-dentons-the-mira...</a></p>
<p>&quot;Denton shows that an intelligent designer already had living things in mind when creating the universe with all its differing elements. Because I had always viewed matter as some random cosmic product, which the designer eventually used for building living things, this came as a revelation to me.</p>
<p>&quot;Denton made me realize that life is not put together from elements that came into existence via cosmic randomness, but that the elements of the periodic table were carefully produced with life as end goal in the mind of the designer.</p>
<p>&quot;I came to think of this analogy: Building an object from random Lego bricks compared to building an object for which a specific set of Legos were produced.</p>
<p>&quot;My children, when they were young, had a huge bag of Legos from which they could build all sorts of things, using pieces that were not actually produced to serve as roof on a house, wheels on a truck, hatches on a tank, furniture in the garden etc.</p>
<p>&quot;On the other hand sometimes they got, as a birthday gift, a set of Legos specifically meant to be assembled into a ship, a motorcycle, a castle, or a caterpillar. In this case, unlike building Lego structures from randomly available pieces, they had individual pieces that were made to serve specific purposes in the overall construction. Denton makes this latter analogy in his book, arguing that hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, iron, copper, zinc etc, were most likely created specifically to serve as building materials for life.</p>
<p>&quot;Denton reveals the extreme specificity of the elements, how the properties—the configuration of electrons—of every single element is clearly tuned to fit the properties of the other elements such that no substitutions seem possible. The chemical characteristics of each element play together in a symphony of awesome fine tuning.</p>
<p>&quot;If the elements were not designed specifically to accommodate life, we should be able to detect spots where improvement could be done or where one element could be substituted for another. According to Denton, this seems not to be the case.</p>
<p>&quot;Although modern cosmology portrays events that led to the creation of matter as undirected, The Miracle of the Cell (2020) makes it clear that this is not what evidence suggests. The designer of life was also the designer of the variety of elements constituting what we call matter. The chemical workings of the cell reveal that matter is a Lego set with designated pieces predestined to be assembled to what we call life.&quot;</p>
<p>Comment: The alternative view is The Anthropic Principal which says if things weren't this way we wouldn't be here. The fine-tuning argument is taken to its extreme by the book. I'll stay with fine-tuning versus chance. After all, how to explain our unexpected arrival? Nothing from Darwin anticipates us.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=37005</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=37005</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2020 21:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: unlikely transitions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>From the Article(Bold Mine):</p>
</blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><p>To reveal the first flower's anatomy, <em><strong>the researchers used probabilistic models that would calculate the likelihood of the emergence of certain floral characteristics throughout time. </strong></em>This method allowed them &quot;not only to find out what ancestral flowers were like, but also to measure uncertainty&quot; around the results, Sauquet said.</p>
</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><p><br />
Tony: Who determined what was the probability of the emergence of any characteristic that did not previously exist? Essentially, this experiment could confirm darn near anything.</p>
</blockquote><p>You feel about computer simulations just as I do.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=25914</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=25914</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2017 20:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: unlikely transitions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the Article(Bold Mine):</p>
<blockquote><blockquote><p>To reveal the first flower's anatomy, <em><strong>the researchers used probabilistic models that would calculate the likelihood of the emergence of certain floral characteristics throughout time. </strong></em>This method allowed them &quot;not only to find out what ancestral flowers were like, but also to measure uncertainty&quot; around the results, Sauquet said.</p>
</blockquote></blockquote><p>Who determined what was the probability of the emergence of any characteristic that did not previously exist? Essentially, this experiment could confirm darn near anything.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=25906</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=25906</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2017 04:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>Balance_Maintained</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: unlikely transitions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the previous entry from Michael Denton:</p>
<p>&quot;The sudden appearance of the angiosperms, I observed in Evolution, is a persistent anomaly which has resisted all attempts at explanation since Darwin&amp;apos;s time.How true. No real flowers are found in any group of plants save those extant today, and no putative ancestral group has been identified in the fossil record, or by molecular phylogenetics. There is no universally accepted set of transitional forms leading up to earliest angiosperms.&quot;</p>
<p>Now a virtual computer simulation has produced a possible flower reproduction:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.livescience.com/60000-first-flower-on-earth.html?utm_source=ls-newsletter&amp;utm_medium=email&amp;utm_campaign=20170802-ls">https://www.livescience.com/60000-first-flower-on-earth.html?utm_source=ls-newsletter&a...</a></p>
<p><br />
&quot;There are many mysteries in plant evolution, and Sauquet and his colleagues were determined to solve one of the biggest ones: what the original angiosperm looked like.  </p>
<p>&quot;We know a lot about the evolutionary history of this group, in particular how plant families are related to one another, but we still know very little about how their emblematic structure — the flower — has evolved and diversified since their origin,&quot; Sauquet told Live Science in an email. &quot;That's why I decided to join forces with other experts and create the international eFLOWER initiative to tackle these questions.&quot;</p>
<p>&quot;Because there are no known fossils of the world's oldest angiosperm— the oldest uncontroversial fossil flower dates to about 130 million years ago, a good 10 million years before the likely birth of the earliest flower — Sauquet and his colleagues used a method known as ancestral state reconstruction, he said.</p>
<p>***</p>
<p>&quot;The results showed that when flowers first popped up on Earth, they went through a series of simplifications in which structures were reduced or merged until the flowers settled on an optimal and stable architecture, he said.</p>
<p>&quot;Once flowers achieved this stable architecture, they likely started to diversify and develop other features, such as symmetry, he noted.</p>
<p>&quot;However, there is still much to learn about early angiosperms and their environments. For instance, it's unclear which animals might have eaten or pollinated these flowers, although &quot;some authors have speculated that flies might have been among the earliest pollinators of flowers,&quot; Sauquet said.</p>
<p>&quot;Moreover, studies on fossilized animal poop, known as coprolites, show that certain paleo-beasts munched on angiosperms. For example, an unknown dinosaur — but apparently a large one, judging from the size of its droppings — ate angiosperms about 75 million years ago, according to research presented at the 2015 Society of Vertebrate Paleontology conference in Dallas.&quot;</p>
<p>Comment: As noted in the previous entry and in this one, no one knows how angiosperms really evolved and presents as much a gap in the evolutionary story as the Cambrian Explosion, which is why it is known as the plant bloom. Darwin was puzzled by both. See the pictures in the article.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=25891</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=25891</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 03 Aug 2017 00:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Another review of Denton's new book (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>DAVID: <em>Natural selection is affected by thinking animals like us, and to a less extent by lesser animals. Not in plants.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw:According to you there are no thinking animals &amp;#147;like us&amp;#148;, and we arrived billions of years after natural selection began. Nobody knows the extent to which &amp;#147;lesser&amp;#148; organisms think, but  it is not unreasonable to assume that &amp;#147;lesser&amp;#148; organisms are able to recognize relationships that are beneficial to them.-Of course they do.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: <em>Why should cells in communities be able to think for themselves and communicate with one another, but single cells can&amp;apos;t?</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; DAVID: <em>Because single cells have automatic functions, while multicellulars have specialized networks of cells that allow thought.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: Multicellulars consist of single cells working together! All organisms, unicellular and multicellular, have automatic functions, but nobody knows to what extent single cells can think (which does not mean think &amp;quot;like us&amp;quot;).-We are at the same point we keep circling back to. Nobody &amp;apos;knows&amp;apos; because they cannot know. Automaticity in a single cell can simply be intelligently planned.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22077</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22077</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2016 13:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Another review of Denton's new book (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DAVID: <em>Since when is natural selection a recognition of &amp;apos;mutual benefit&amp;apos;? Bacteria don&amp;apos;t think</em>.-dhw: <em>As usual, you state your opinion as if it were a fact. Natural selection does not preclude thought!</em>-DAVID: <em>Natural selection is affected by thinking animals like us, and to a less extent by lesser animals. Not in plants.</em>-According to you there are no thinking animals &amp;#147;like us&amp;#148;, and we arrived billions of years after natural selection began. Nobody knows the extent to which &amp;#147;lesser&amp;#148; organisms think, but  it is not unreasonable to assume that &amp;#147;lesser&amp;#148; organisms are able to recognize relationships that are beneficial to them.-dhw: <em>Why should cells in communities be able to think for themselves and communicate with one another, but single cells can&amp;apos;t?</em>-DAVID: <em>Because single cells have automatic functions, while multicellulars have specialized networks of cells that allow thought.</em>-Multicellulars consist of single cells working together! All organisms, unicellular and multicellular, have automatic functions, but nobody knows to what extent single cells can think (which does not mean think &amp;quot;like us&amp;quot;).</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22073</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22073</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2016 08:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Another review of Denton's new book (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>[/i]&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; DAVID: <em>Since when is natural selection a recognition of &amp;apos;mutual benefit&amp;apos;? Bacteria don&amp;apos;t think</em>.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: As usual, you state your opinion as if it were a fact. Natural selection does not preclude thought!-Natural selection is affected by thinking animals like us, and to a less extent  by lesser animals. Not in plants.-&gt; dhw: Why should cells in communities be able to think for themselves and communicate with one another, but single cells can&amp;apos;t?-Because single cells have automatic functions, while multicellulars have specialized networks of cells that allow thought. -&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw;The whole point is that multicellularity allowed for an almost infinitely expandable range of life forms - a big improvement over the limitations of the single cell. Hence the higgledy-piggledy bush of evolution.-No question.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22068</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22068</guid>
<pubDate>Sun, 29 May 2016 14:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Another review of Denton's new book (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dhw: <em>It is you who keep quoting authors who flog the dead horse of gradualism. I agree with you entirely on the subject of &amp;#147;magical&amp;#148; saltations, but how often do we have to repeat that nobody can explain them?</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>Belief in God does. Remember I&amp;apos;m on his side.</em>-You are right. Belief in chance or in an autonomous inventive mechanism also explains them. I should have said that nobody knows which is the true explanation.-dhw:<em> Of course it&amp;apos;s saltation, but in this particular instance, Margulis&amp;apos;s theory did not involve plotting. She suggests that the symbiosis originally took place by chance. The intelligence comes in with the recognition of mutual benefit, which then leads to further exploration of the potential benefits of symbiosis and cooperation. &amp;#13;&amp;#10;</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>Since when is natural selection a recognition of &amp;apos;mutual benefit&amp;apos;? Bacteria don&amp;apos;t think</em>.-As usual, you state your opinion as if it were a fact. Natural selection does not preclude thought! Natural selection merely describes the process by which things survive or don&amp;apos;t survive. If organisms find they benefit from something - whether it&amp;apos;s symbiosis, sexual reproduction, vision, smell, nest-building, migration, parasitism - that &amp;#147;something&amp;#148; will survive. You say bacteria are automatons that don&amp;apos;t know what they&amp;apos;re doing. And yet you are prepared to grant autonomy to their multicellular descendants, even to the extent that they create functioning &amp;#147;complexifications&amp;#148; which your God may subsequently approve of (i.e. which he did not programme for them). Why should cells in communities be able to think for themselves and communicate with one another, but single cells can&amp;apos;t?-DAVID: <em>The Margolis theory cannot tell us whether it was chance engulfment, or God&amp;apos;s saltation.</em> -True. But you had ridiculed the idea of bacteria &amp;#147;plotting&amp;#148; to become multicellular, and I was explaining that there was no &amp;#147;plot&amp;#148; in Margulis&amp;apos;s theory - even though she believed in bacterial intelligence. She attributed the beginnings to chance, not a &amp;#147;plot&amp;#148;. And I pointed out that the intelligence (perhaps God-given) came into play with recognition of the mutual benefit.-DAVID: <em>That the newly combined organism had a better reproductive and survival fitness is all that was needed to establish a new form.</em>-A better reproductive system = improvement. Better survival fitness, no, because unicellular bacteria have survived to this day. The whole point is that multicellularity allowed for an almost infinitely expandable range of life forms - a big improvement over the limitations of the single cell. Hence the higgledy-piggledy bush of evolution.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22064</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22064</guid>
<pubDate>Sun, 29 May 2016 12:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Another review of Denton's new book (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: It is you who keep quoting authors who flog the dead horse of gradualism. I agree with you entirely on the subject of &amp;#147;magical&amp;#148; saltations, but how often do we have to repeat that nobody can explain them?-Belief in God does. Remember I&amp;apos;m on his side.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: Of course it&amp;apos;s saltation, but in this particular instance, Margulis&amp;apos;s theory did not involve plotting. She suggests that the symbiosis originally took place by chance. The intelligence comes in with the recognition of mutual benefit, which then leads to further exploration of the potential benefits of symbiosis and cooperation. -Since when is natural selection a recognition of &amp;apos;mutual benefit&amp;apos;? Bacteria don&amp;apos;t think. The Margolis theory cannot tell us whether it was chance engulfment, or God&amp;apos;s saltation. That the newly combined organism had a better reproductive and survival fitness is all that was needed to establish a new form.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22061</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22061</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 28 May 2016 20:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Another review of Denton's new book (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dhw: <em>How many more times do we have to agree that Darwin&amp;apos;s gradualism is out?</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>Because you do not think of saltation the way I do. I made much of this in my first book. Gradualism is NEVER the point. We are discussing giant leaps in form and functionality. Saltation looks and smells like magical advances. Nothing explains them, but there they are! Perhaps God, a supernatural force?</em> - It is you who keep quoting authors who flog the dead horse of gradualism. I agree with you entirely on the subject of &amp;#147;magical&amp;#148; saltations, but how often do we have to repeat that nobody can explain them? That is why we come up with different hypotheses: Darwin&amp;apos;s random mutations, now matched by your shotgun complexifications; your 3.8-billion-year computer programme for all innovations and natural wonders; your divine dabbles; separate creation; my autonomous inventive mechanism (depending on cellular intelligence). Nobody knows. - dhw: <em>Saltation of innovations, engineered by the autonomous intelligence of cells - yep, fits my hypothesis exactly</em>. - DAVID: <em>Yep, pipe dreams of superior planning intelligence hidden in bacteria who plotted to become multicellular, a process which is not understood, but looks like saltation.</em> - Of course it&amp;apos;s saltation, but in this particular instance, Margulis&amp;apos;s theory did not involve plotting. She suggests that the symbiosis originally took place by chance. The intelligence comes in with the recognition of mutual benefit, which then leads to further exploration of the potential benefits of symbiosis and cooperation. Humans also make accidental discoveries and then develop them. (But to anticipate your usual riposte, that is an analogy: bacteria think like bacteria, and humans think like humans.)</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22055</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22055</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 28 May 2016 10:47:46 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Another review of Denton's new book (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;quot;<em>If there are emergent laws of form, as Denton argues, then gradualism is no longer a requirement in evolution. He consistently argues that the evidence from the fossil record, taxonomy and much genetics is that the important changes were relatively, at least, saltational</em>.&amp;#148;&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; Dhw: How many more times do we have to agree that Darwin&amp;apos;s gradualism is out?  &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#147;<em><strong>Such discontinuities have no known, and in most cases no conceivable, adaptive origin. They arose de novo - and perhaps they even arose more than once in different lineages, as some examples of &amp;#147;convergent evolution&amp;#148; suggest. In such cases (a majority, in fact, of taxon-defining features), not only do we have no clear knowledge of the ancestors in which they occurred, but it doesn&amp;apos;t appear to matter much anyway</strong>. </em>&amp;#147; (David&amp;apos;s bold)&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: I don&amp;apos;t know why you have put this in bold. How many more times do we have to agree that Darwin&amp;apos;s gradualism is out? - Because you do not think of saltation the way I do. I made much of this in my first book. Gradualism is NEVER the point. We are discussing giant leaps in form and functionality. Saltation looks and smells like magical advances. Nothing explains them, but there they are! Perhaps God, a supernatural force?&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: Saltation of innovations, engineered by the autonomous intelligence of cells - yep, fits my hypothesis exactly. - Yep, pipe dreams of superior planning intelligence hidden in bacteria who plotted to become multicellular, a process which is not understood, but looks like saltation.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22049</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22049</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2016 18:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Another review of Denton's new book (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will make my own selection of quotes: - &amp;quot;<em>Denton himself considers that pentadactyly, and similar examples, constitute good evidence for common descent itself, but I should remind you that the nested heirarchy was formerly, by those like Linnaeus, considered telling evidence for the special creation of every possible species by God.&amp;#148;</em> - I would have thought it was obvious that common structures like the pentadactyl are evidence for Darwin&amp;apos;s theory of common descent. Clearly Denton thinks so too.  - &amp;quot;<em>If there are emergent laws of form, as Denton argues, then gradualism is no longer a requirement in evolution. He consistently argues that the evidence from the fossil record, taxonomy and much genetics is that the important changes were relatively, at least, saltational</em>.&amp;#148; - How many more times do we have to agree that Darwin&amp;apos;s gradualism is out?   - &amp;#147;<em><strong>Such discontinuities have no known, and in most cases no conceivable, adaptive origin. They arose de novo - and perhaps they even arose more than once in different lineages, as some examples of &amp;#147;convergent evolution&amp;#148; suggest. In such cases (a majority, in fact, of taxon-defining features), not only do we have no clear knowledge of the ancestors in which they occurred, but it doesn&amp;apos;t appear to matter much anyway</strong>. </em>&amp;#147; (David&amp;apos;s bold) - I don&amp;apos;t know why you have put this in bold. How many more times do we have to agree that Darwin&amp;apos;s gradualism is out? - &amp;quot;<em>Meanwhile, I&amp;apos;ll just ask you to consider whether the obsession of biology with common ancestry would have any purpose whatsoever if the day came when Darwinian gradualism were finally concluded to have only secondary importance for the origin of the species</em>.&amp;quot; - How many more times, many more times, more times, times&amp;#133;.? - David&amp;apos;s comment: <em>If Darwin evolution was truly at random why the fixed patterns from the beginning of Pentadactyl forms? Note my bold. It all looks like saltation of complexities. This review fits my point of view exactly.</em> - How many more times do we have to agree that Darwin&amp;apos;s randomness is out? The fixed patterns are clear evidence of common descent. Adaptations and improvements must work swiftly if they are to survive, so how many more times do we have to agree that Darwin&amp;apos;s gradualism is out?  Saltation of innovations, engineered by the autonomous intelligence of cells - yep, fits my hypothesis exactly (see also under &amp;#147;Defining life&amp;#148;).</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22044</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22044</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2016 12:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Another review of Denon's new book (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again an emphasis on the structuralism approach to evolutionary theory: - <a href="http://potiphar.jongarvey.co.uk/2016/05/14/denton-emergence-and-common-descent/">http://potiphar.jongarvey.co.uk/2016/05/14/denton-emergence-and-common-descent/</a>  - &amp;quot;I might add (because Denton doesn&amp;apos;t stress it) that structuralism - the idea that much of biological form depends on lawlike constraints, rather than adaptive contingency - was the prevalent theory of evolution, in the form of orthogenesis, at the time when Darwinism was found wanting in explanatory power at the beginning of the twentieth century. It was only the Neodarwinian Synthesis that rehabilitated Darwinism, and it was the hegemony of that Synthesis within western biology that not only wrote the case for structuralism out of science, but virtually out of history as well.  - *** - &amp;quot;Denton&amp;apos;s structuralism is a well-argued return to the reality of essentialism in biology: there are indeed true discontinuities between taxa that simply cannot be explained by natural selection. If so, then Aristotle was actually observing nature more accurately than we have for the last century or so, in our dogma that all life is a continuum of contingently changing components. Because these discontinuities constitute some of the most significant features of living things, they radically relativise the significance of natural selection. To a large extent, selection becomes the tinkerer that merely fine-tunes microevolution, whereas what Denton argues to be natural laws of emergence are what paints the grand picture of life. - *** - &amp;quot;Denton actually quotes from Darwin himself: that the features that we highlight to construct the nested heirarchies used to support common descent are by their very nature those farthest removed from adaptive selection. To take his first example, the pentadactyl vertebrate limb (extensively studied by Owen), the whole point is that it has remained universal amongst the whole vertebrate clade for 400 million years, despite every adaptational exigency to which it has been turned from flying or swimming or digging holes to writing books. It cannot possibly, then, be evidence for Darwinian evolution. Indeed, Denton points out that the very existence of a nested heirarchy is evidence against Darwinian processes as the major player in evolution, for change without direction ought to lead to taxonomy without patterns. - &amp;quot;Denton himself considers that pentadactyly, and similar examples, constitute good evidence for common descent itself, but I should remind you that the nested heirarchy was formerly, by those like Linnaeus, considered telling evidence for the special creation of every possible species by God. - *** - &amp;quot;If there are emergent laws of form, as Denton argues, then gradualism is no longer a requirement in evolution. He consistently argues that the evidence from the fossil record, taxonomy and much genetics is that the important changes were relatively, at least, saltational. Let me run with that for a moment, commencing with an example that seems fairly well established: the saltational acquisition of mitochondria by eukaryotes through Lynn Margulis&amp;apos; suggestion of a fusion of two disparate forms of life. Whatever further adjustments arose by adaptation through that assumed saltation, there was a profound discontinuity between the two pre-existing lineages and the resulting clade of eukaryotes. - *** - &amp;quot;let us suppose that emergent laws explain some of Denton&amp;apos;s other examples, such as the necessarily sudden (and yet horrendously complex) extrusion of the nucleus from the mammalian erythrocyte, the evolution of the theropod feather or, indeed, that pentadactyl limb. Or ORFan genes. Or turtle anatomy&amp;#133; or the phenomenon of developmental systems drift. <strong>Such discontinuities have no known, and in most cases no conceivable, adaptive origin. They arose de novo - and perhaps they even arose more than once in different lineages, as some examples of &amp;#147;convergent evolution&amp;#148; suggest. In such cases (a majority, in fact, of taxon-defining features), not only do we have no clear knowledge of the ancestors in which they occurred, but it doesn&amp;apos;t appear to matter much anyway. </strong> - *** - &amp;quot;Meanwhile, I&amp;apos;ll just ask you to consider whether the obsession of biology with common ancestry would have any purpose whatsoever if the day came when Darwinian gradualism were finally concluded to have only secondary importance for the origin of the species.&amp;quot; - Comment: If Darwin evolution was truly at random why the fixed patterns from the beginning of Pentadactyl forms? Note my bold. It all looks like saltation of  complexities. This review fits my point of view exactly.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22039</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22039</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2016 23:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Chomsky's  new book negative review (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A review of Chomsky&amp;apos;s new book which takes a negative slant:-https://www.newscientist.com/article/2078294-why-only-us-the-language-paradox/-&amp;quot;In Why Only Us, Chomsky and Berwick argue that this pared- down version of universal grammar is what would have enabled early humans to make the evolutionary jump from language-less creatures to the loquacious beings of the Upper Palaeolithic, some 40,000 years ago. This, in turn, would have resulted in the unheralded rich cultural explosion around that time, including cave art, jewelry and ritual burials.-&amp;quot;Their argument goes like this. As our capability for grammar is genetically programmed, and as no other species has language, it stands to reason that language emerged fairly suddenly, in one fell swoop, because of a random mutation. This is what the authors refer to as the &amp;#147;gambler&amp;apos;s-eye view&amp;#148; in contrast to a &amp;#147;gene&amp;apos;s-eye view&amp;#148; of evolution. The sudden appearance of language occurred perhaps no more than 80,000 years ago, just before modern humans engaged in an out-of-Africa dispersion.-***-&amp;quot;Developmental and cognitive psychologists now have a clearer sense of the ways in which conceptual and linguistic learning works. A human infant seems to have a range of both primate and species-specific learning mechanisms and abilities that enable the acquisition of language. The emerging consensus is that language acquisition can occur without an innate blueprint for grammar.-***-&amp;quot;In short, as language exists only in our species, without precedent elsewhere, then it did not evolve from some simpler form of communication. Hence, it must have evolved fairly quickly and in one discontinuous jump. As the hallmark of language is a simple, computational syntax-engine, then, so the argument goes, this sort of species-specific event is not at all improbable.-&amp;quot;However, this ultimately paints Homo sapiens, a species no more than about 200,000 years old, into a corner. Modern humans become an evolutionary curiosity, isolated from the 2.8-million-year evolutionary trajectory of the genus that led to us. It also amounts to a highly selective and partial presentation of the recent research literature.-***- &amp;quot;Indeed, the book attempts to make a virtue of disagreeing with almost everyone on how language evolved. To see language bucking the kind of gradual evolutionary change that Darwin proposed is surely a controversial perspective.-***-&amp;quot;The reader is asked to swallow the following unlikely implication of their logic: language didn&amp;apos;t evolve for communication, but rather for internal thought. If language did evolve as a chance mutation, without precedent, then it first emerged in one individual. And what is the value of language as a communicative tool when there is no one else to talk to? Hence, the evolutionary advantage of language, once it emerged, must have been for something else: assisting thought.-***-&amp;quot;Ultimately, the reader is left with a paradox: the evolutionary view entailed by Chomsky&amp;apos;s stripped down, minimalistic universal grammar calls into question the very account of language Berwick and Chomsky attempt to provide us with.-Comment: The reviewer is pro-Darwin and Chomsky&amp;apos;s view is really not, suggesting a saltation.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=21502</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=21502</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 02 Apr 2016 00:59:48 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Orbiting teapots theoretically exist (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: Dark energy is indeed a theory, and since nobody has a clue what it is, how do you know the theoretical dark energy is not interdependent with the theoretical dark matter that it theoretically drives? Why not just stick to the fact that pure energy - like multiverses, 11 dimensions, invisible orbiting teapots, the chance origin of life, a 3.8 billion-year programme for all evolutionary innovations, an autonomous cellular intelligence, and God himself - is theoretically possible?  - Agreed, but not tea pots. Silly straw man</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=21464</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=21464</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2016 14:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Orbiting teapots theoretically exist (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DAVID: <em>You cannot avoid the fact they only use the word &amp;apos;energy&amp;apos;.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;dhw: <em>Are you telling us that whenever people use the word &amp;#145;energy&amp;apos; on its own they actually mean &amp;#147;pure&amp;#148; energy, though its very existence is controversial? Matt Strassler does talk of &amp;#147;pure&amp;#148; energy: he tells us that &amp;#147;the term &amp;#147;pure energy&amp;#148; is a mix of poetry, shorthand and garbage.&amp;#148; </em>-DAVID:<em> Matt Strassler was discussing the energy/matter we know. He is right It is hard to spot the exact point where pure energy becomes the beginnings of matter. BUT, we are discussing dark energy, a force field of energy that drives the expansion of the universe. Matter is not involved in the theoretical proposal, only energy.</em>-Dark energy is indeed a theory, and since nobody has a clue what it is, how do you know the theoretical dark energy is not interdependent with the theoretical dark matter that it theoretically drives? Why not just stick to the fact that pure energy - like multiverses, 11 dimensions, invisible orbiting teapots, the chance origin of life, a 3.8 billion-year programme for all evolutionary innovations, an autonomous cellular intelligence, and God himself - is theoretically possible?  -DAVID: <em>Life did spark. No good theory as yet. General relativity and quantum mechanics won&amp;apos;t join. But thinking human keep trying with open minds. That is all I am doing. But I like reaching concrete landing spots, and will change if the evidence changes. Where are your intellectual feet?</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;dhw: <em>No good theory yet: agreed. Keep trying with open minds: agreed. Concrete landing spots: a bit of a problem. If there is no good theory yet, how do you justify a concrete landing spot? My intellectual feet are dangling down, one on each side of the intellectual fence. I will reach a concrete landing spot if and when the evidence provides a good theory.</em>-DAVID: <em>Which may be never!</em>-Yes indeed.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=21460</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=21460</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 26 Mar 2016 12:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: A new book; language (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: I like the different breed of cat! It is you who persist in emphasizing Adler&amp;apos;s &amp;#147;difference in kind&amp;#148; during all our discussions on evolution, and I shall be delighted to put an end to this particular form of tail-chasing.-Cats don&amp;apos;t chase tails, only dogs who are not as couth. Different. End.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=21453</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=21453</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2016 15:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>More Denton: Orbiting teapots theoretically exist (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>DAVID: <em>You cannot avoid the fact they only use the word &amp;apos;energy&amp;apos;.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: Are you telling us that whenever people use the word &amp;#145;energy&amp;apos; on its own they actually mean &amp;#147;pure&amp;#148; energy, though its very existence is controversial? Matt Strassler does talk of &amp;#147;pure&amp;#148; energy: he tells us that &amp;#147;<em>the term &amp;#147;pure energy&amp;#148; is a mix of poetry, shorthand and garbage.</em>&amp;#148; -Matt Strassler was discussing the energy/matter we know. He is right It is hard to spot the exact point where pure energy becomes the beginnings of matter. BUT, we are discussing dark energy, a force field of energy that drives the expansion of the universe. Matter is not involved in the theoretical proposal, only energy.-&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; DAVID: <em>Life did spark. No good theory as yet. General relativity and quantum mechanics won&amp;apos;t join. But thinking human keep trying with open minds. That is all I am doing. But I like reaching concrete landing spots, and will change if the evidence changes. Where are your intellectual feet?</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: No good theory yet: agreed. Keep trying with open minds: agreed. Concrete landing spots: a bit of a problem. If there is no good theory yet, how do you justify a concrete landing spot? My intellectual feet are dangling down, one on each side of the intellectual fence. I will reach a concrete landing spot if and when the evidence provides a good theory.-Which may be never!</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=21452</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=21452</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2016 15:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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