> In response to my question about free will, you wrote: "Even if we do have so much free will, or have none, still we are all fairly happy with what we have to be entertained with as long as no one is harming us. As long as there are just so many elements in our play pen then we can only have so much free will."
> 
> That is not quite what I meant. It's not the limitation of materials available to us, but what we do with those materials that relates to free will. If we are simply part of the UI, which is inside us and directing us, none of our decisions are ours and even our belief that we are real as individuals is an illusion. - None of us hold or have any identity apart from that which we relate with and to. In other words, we are nothing without each other. This being so, just the fact that we all ARE, engenders care for each other if for no other reason than to preserve, or better yet, to grow one-self. My point about free will is why does it matter if we do or we don't have free will? What if we are ONE being operating as many for the good of all, or many beings operating for the good of one (self)? What if we are all directing each other by each decision made, or one directing all by one decision made? It would make no difference either way. Our will is as free as it IS allowed to be, or, as free as we perceive it to be. One way or the other, it appears free to our conscious awareness. How we choose to believe about what appears matters more than what actually is, in my estimation, as that is what guides our own happiness or peace in our everyday life. - >In fact, this ties in with the whole subject of identity, of which will and morality ... now being discussed on The Human Animal thread ... are just a part. It's a broad subject, and perhaps we should start a separate thread on it. - What would be the title of the new thread?

BBella: Think about it...if you were a UI, why would you just create and sit back and watch when you obviously have the ability to create and experience every creation as it happens simultaneously!
> 
> This is somewhat akin to writing plays and fiction: the writer experiences in his mind what his characters go through, and yet at the same time he's detached and able to watch them. You seem to be going one step further and saying that the UI undergoes the experiences physically. Christians would probably welcome the concept in terms of Christ/God suffering on the cross, but I wonder if they would be equally at home with Christ/God staggering home on a Saturday night, vomiting all over the living-room carpet, and then stabbing his wife in the chest with a carving knife. And I wonder if God would also enjoy being the wife at the same time. - No, for the most part, Christian's definitely would not welcome this concept, altho the scriptures themselves do claim the concept. Being a Christian myself for most of my life (altho with different religious beliefs), and knowing the in's and out's of the scriptures for the most part, I can tell you this concept would repulse most of them! - >I'd have thought that by now he'd have had enough of the pain he keeps inflicting on himself. - Maybe the God I am speaking of, the All that Is, may be evolving it's way out of a pain inflicting way of being for a purpose that may resolve the problem of ever having to go backward, or starting from square ONE (alone) ever again, for ALL involved. WE mainly learn from experiencing and something you have to go to hell to get to heaven (literally). Imagine that this God does not want to create just a few select beings that are replicas of himself, but a whole race of beings very similar to himself, yet different. If I were a UI, and all ONE, or better said, al-one, I think I would want to create as many selves (cells) as possible. If I were able to replicate myself once, I could do it a zillion times. Yet, why replicate a zillion when I want all zillion to feel autonomous, be creative, and be happy as well, not go around creating hells for other created beings? I would have need of a plan to do so, but not only that, I would have to go by trial and error (era). And remember, for the most part, this is all being done holographically. So some part of each being does know, maybe only subconsciously, just what is truly going on here. - If (of course this is all conjecture) I could replicate some beings and get them somewhat balanced first then move on from there....no telling what could come of it. It's just getting these beings to work together in the first place while consciously feeling completely separate and autonomous that is the catch, and of course would take 'time.' And I would also think that this ONE being would want what is best not only for the one self but for all selves as.... all are ONE. - >On the other hand, you're right, it would also be pretty boring just to watch the same old shows. You will gather that I continue to have trouble with the whole concept, but maybe I still haven't really grasped it. - Maybe you are trying to combine the old idea of the Christian God with this concept. What I am speaking of really has nothing to do with the old idea but does have some similarities to the Christian God and maybe even to many other concepts of God or supreme being around the world. Many written scripts may hold some of this concept because possibly somewhere in our memory is a remembrance of this knowing, but all is distorted thru time, perception and power. But in the end of it all, it's all old concepts. This being is ever evolving and so would have evolved from most if not all concepts, including even what I am speaking of. Everything is really only being spoken of in past tense always anyway. - continued....

I've placed myself in a UI's place (as much as a human can) and thought about how I could travel at any moment to anywhere in the universe and can see myself getting bored pretty quickly...which then could make for interesting creative spurts I guess. But, still, I'd rather taste a banana than watch someone else taste it, or swim in the ocean rather than watch someone swim...just doesn't seem it would be all that entertaining for very long just observing everything happening and not be able to just jump in and have a go at it.
> - 
And...thinking about it more...this is a UI we are talking about here. Already, we humans are creating different ways to experience different things, other than just experiencing them, why? We started off very small; watching tv, then video games, the Wii, holographic virtuality (in the making), etc. What are we working toward with this virtual reality? We already experience what we experience so where are we going with virtual reality? We want to experience what we want when we want. Could we just be working toward the recognition of just who we are? A creator experiencing what it wants when it wants? - Think about it...if you were a UI, why would you just create and sit back and watch when you obviously have the ability to create and experience every creation as it happens simultaneously! What a rush!!! Imagine if it is possible, why not? Holographics seems to have the key of just how something very similar could be possible even for us, the human race, given a few more 100 yrs more or less...imagine a million or so years? who knows, maybe each of us could be our own created civilization experiencing a multitude of lives all at once. The ultimate video game???

BBella's concept of a possible Universal Intelligence is that it lies within everything, and is continually learning about itself. - I would more emphasize experiencing as much as learning, which could be the same thing, I guess? - > 
> Once again, thank you for your direct answers. I wonder if we could tie this concept in with the interesting discussion that David and Matt have been having about free will. (I'd also like to thank Matt for the brilliant Nietzsche quote, "In Conclusion"...4 August at 03.36).
> 
> If the UI is an outside force, I can quite see that we could have free will ... and this would link up with the concept of God using us for entertainment. (If I may digress briefly, I think this would be far less boring for God than just watching inorganic materials chucking themselves around.) - I don't know, I've placed myself in a UI's place (as much as a human can) and thought about how I could travel at any moment to anywhere in the universe and can see myself getting bored pretty quickly...which then could make for interesting creative spurts I guess. But, still, I'd rather taste a banana than watch someone else taste it, or swim in the ocean rather than watch someone swim...just doesn't seem it would be all that entertaining for very long just observing everything happening and not be able to just jump in and have a go at it. - >However, if the UI is an inside force, which means that you and I are just parts of its conscious self, wouldn't that make our free will an illusion? - Possibly. But using the analogy of the baby in the play pen with the toys and bottle, as long as the baby is fascinated with its effects, etc, then nothing more is needed. The baby needs as much free will as should be given for its age and abilities. We/UI, only have what is needed as we grow...our free will would be just as fascinating for our age, and seems to be doing just fine as we grow. Even if we do have so much free will, or have none, still we are all fairly happy with what we have to be entertained with as long as no one is harming us. As long as there are just so many elements in our play pen then we can only have so much free will. The elements or fabric we are working with is either freeing or imprisoning, one way or another...maybe it's just perspective? But really, can we complain? 
 
> Incidentally, I like the expression "on pause". It's far more promising than my feeble "sitting on the fence"!

dhw: And for the most part we are fortunate in having contributors who do not state their beliefs as totally established facts that we must all bow down to.
> 
> This is not to say however that there aren't many swathes of well established facts that we should all adhere to. Like most of scientific knowledge. - I add my complete agreement. I will continue to bring speculative experimentation to attention here, but I wish everyone will understand its true nature.

Anyone interested in obtaining a PhD in Intelligent Design?
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> http://www.designinference.com/teaching/teaching.htm
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> This link to Professor Dembski's course has provoked much comment on RD.net.
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> "... provide at least 10 posts defending ID that you've made on "hostile" websites, the posts totalling 2,000 words, along with the URLs"
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> I wonder if AgnosticWeb counts as hostile or friendly or is it neutral? - I would say it doesn't know...

Are you serious: Hypnosis can be used to get rid of warts? - Proven about 50 years Ago.

I am speaking about becoming conscious when something isn't running correctly and being able to consciously do something about it.
> 
> > It may not be about forgetfulness it may be more about awareness and the need to develop our ability to recognize the connection between the body and the mind in order to enhance the health of both.
> 
> True fact: Hypnosis can be used to get rid of warts, but more interestingly, the hypnotist can direct his subject to lose them on the right or left side and they will disappear only on the side designated. Warts are due to a virus, and a dermatologist, in his training, proved it by innoculating volunteer prisoners in jail with ground up wart material. He was a friend of mine years ago.
> - A hypnotist normally brings the person's mind and body to a peaceful state in order to begin the process of change in the mind and body, and yet, we are bombarded everyday with supposed 'facts' which our subconscious mind many times turns into our reality, which can and does effect the mind and body. For me, it's not really about if it is happening (as I know it does) or even about how, but what I can do about it on a conscious level. - > The mind is a very powerful influence on our health. Placebos work all the time. I know because I used the effect when needed. I once had a patient whom I thought was mildly addicted to pain shots. In the hospital, at the time, we gave her placebos, which worked completely. I did this to convince her to get into addiction therapy. She did, but fired me for the deception. I didn't care. I'd helped someone who needed help and I could find no other way to convince her. - Yes, the mind and body is so very plastic (for want of a better term) and I want to know more about just how plastic it is and how much influence the 'I' of myself has upon my own reality....and of course I know I am not the only one wanting to know this as I am sure there are many studies being done to find out more. But why wait for the studies? I have plenty of time to observe it for myself..at least as long as I am here. Since it is always happening on a continuous basis, it's really about my broadening my awareness to catch it at work.

And so the only real difference ... please forgive me if I'm being obtuse ... between your God and the conventional monotheistic God / Yahweh / Allah, is that yours is still learning, whereas theirs already knows it all. Is that an accurate assessment, or have I missed something? - No, I don't think you missed anything as that is an accurate assessment. - > 
> None of the above should be taken negatively, by the way. I'm just trying to understand the concept, and am breaking it down into my own terms. - Yes, I can see that and, I definitely did not take anything negatively. - > In your reply to George, you emphasize the limitations of science, and adduce your personal experiences as evidence. - Yes, evidence to me only, of course, as I do not expect anyone else to use my evidence as theirs. - >This is a point that has been raised many times on the forum, but it keeps disappearing again. Your own case can be multiplied many times over, and since all our conclusions in this context are based ultimately on conviction and not on provable fact, I think it's a point well worth repeating! - I agree. And in recounting my experience, which I've mentioned before, of recognizing the pattern of my own belief systems during my religious bout (which was most of my life), and observing how each time I changed my belief, the Bible seemed to accommodate this new belief, I then wondered when coming out of my NDE/OBE?, if I could not only choose my own religious belief but choose my own reality perspective? So putting this to the test, I saw, to my own amazement/fear, that not only could I, but I have been doing this all along! This then placed me on pause about just what perspective to now take? And that is where I am....still on pause, more or less.

I am speaking about becoming conscious when something isn't running correctly and being able to consciously do something about it. - > It may not be about forgetfulness it may be more about awareness and the need to develop our ability to recognize the connection between the body and the mind in order to enhance the health of both. - True fact: Hypnosis can be used to get rid of warts, but more interestingly, the hypnotist can direct his subject to lose them on the right or left side and they will disappear only on the side designated. Warts are due to a virus, and a dermatologist, in his training, proved it by innoculating volunteer prisoners in jail with ground up wart material. He was a friend of mine years ago. - The mind is a very powerful influence on our health. Placebos work all the time. I know because I used the effect when needed. I once had a patient whom I thought was mildly addicted to pain shots. In the hospital, at the time, we gave her placebos, which worked completely. I did this to convince her to get into addiction therapy. She did, but fired me for the deception. I didn't care. I'd helped someone who needed help and I could find no other way to convince her.

Right...I understand the body does know how to run itself...but, I do still find it curious that there appears to be a disconnection between the conscious awareness and the lower brain that runs the whole show. I actually believe there isn't a disconnection but more of a forgetfulness... but I am about observing how they are connected.
> 
> If we had to worry consciously about breathing, adjusting pulse rate to exercise, oxygen levels, etc., we would not have time to mentally handle everything else we do. But if we stop and think about breathing, etc. we are aware of its rate and depth. - I didn't mean to imply we should be able to connect to every aspect of our bodies ability to run the whole show, as in consciously breathing, running the heart, etc., I am speaking about becoming conscious when something isn't running correctly and being able to consciously do something about it. - >There are connections between the brain stem and the cortex, but we are supposed to forget the automatic processes unless our attention is called to them. - Right...and possibly our awareness is being brought to these automatic processor's when something isn't right but maybe we have lost (or have yet to become aware of) our ability to recognize when something is out of whack or moving in a direction that will ultimately be detrimental for our health. - >To me the concept of forgetfulness doesn't raise any issues. - It may not be about forgetfulness it may be more about awareness and the need to develop our ability to recognize the connection between the body and the mind in order to enhance the health of both.