"You have given me a very clear pictue of fundamentals. They are the particles of supersymmetry that we know and the ones we are hunting for , i.e., Higgs Boson..."
> > > 
> > > Actually we have never detected a supersymmetry particle. The Higgs Boson is the one particle in the Standard Model that has yet to be detected.-
Rivals hunting at high speed for the Higgs:-http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/45390

"You have given me a very clear pictue of fundamentals. They are the particles of supersymmetry that we know and the ones we are hunting for , i.e., Higgs Boson..."
> > 
> > Actually we have never detected a supersymmetry particle. The Higgs Boson is the one particle in the Standard Model that has yet to be detected.
> 
> You are correct about my misunderstanding of supersymmetry (SUSY). The following article shows how finding the Higgs may lead to supersymmetry.
> 
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427341.200-in-susy-we-trust-what-the-lhc-is-rea... far at the LHC, no Higgs, and some think it may not exist, which requires a new particle physics to better explain the standard model:-http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110228/full/471013a.html


> You're being very insulting. I'm not "carefully avoiding" anything. That would mean that I'm really not interested in the truth, but only in one-upping you. -You are using the old trick of the best defense is a good offence. I didn't insult you, as you interpret. You are avoiding issues; perhaps because you don't even realize they are issues, having a blind sense of what you think must be right. 
> 
> What I was doing in all innocence was trying to explain why the subjects report a continuous experience of walking down a tunnel, speaking with dead people they knew beforehand were dead who inform them of people who have died that they didn't know about (broken telepathy), and thinking they're walking into the afterlife only to be told that it is not yet their time. -Think about this. Why do so many people with an NDE have exactly the same event of walking down the tunnel? Some are told about a dead acquaintance. Others are simple told to go back. Many feel love and peace. Why do they always see the dead? The consistent pattern might suggest a built-in code in brain. Only a small number might experience your proposal of broken telepathy. Do you have any statistics on how many people are telepathic? I don't. Or are you proposing that every person with friends as a telepathic connection with them? I don't consider telepathy as supernatural. My wife has it and her powers at times are amazing (and described here awhile ago).
>
> When people do that I immediately start thinking they're confessing their own sins: a case of Freudian projection.-Freud is very passé. All of us sin, but I'm not transferring anything to you. Relax. I'm just very precise and direct. What you and dhw are doing would drive me nuts.
> 
> "Operating room scenes are not passed telepathically."
> 
> How do you know that? That statement looks like it came right out of the blue, like sheer speculation on your part. It reads just like what you want to believe (wishful thinking), because it supports your religious beliefs.-My religious beliefs are my own invention, just like yours are for you.
>
> In the extreme state of being near flat line, the brain may very well be receptive to telepathic "vibrations" or whatever they are. It seems to me that telepathic communications are much more probable than messages from the beyond.-The out of body experience the basilar artery lady had, has nothing to do with God or His beyond. This is an issue of her ability to discover actual events. I stated it was set up that she could not hear, she was in deep freeze with low blood pressure and low blood volume.-Her consciousness picked this up. How? Again, I don't know. Nothing supernatural. Very unexpected and very unusual. But van Lommel suggesting that the consciousness might still be coherently present despite a very disabled brain, acting separate from the body, is an interesting proposal. Your telepathy theory is just as weird as van Lommel's suggestion. Remember, this is not the only story of this sort. They are multiple. They require a scientific explanation, if possible. I'm not even sure how a proper investigation can be done with the OOB's. Many of them, as you will find if you search, have third party corroboration. -The lady who floated up to the third floor and saw a sneaker on a file cabinet top, shoe lace under the heel (!!!), through an outside window, while in the ER under myocardial infact resuscitiation. Attested to by a social worker and a psychiatrist. I can give names and particulars. Happened many years ago. In the literature. Telepathy. Not in this one, no way. A totally different experience than those I have told you before. This website is no place for me to tell you everything I have read and discovered. If you really want to learn about this, I can give you a bibliography, which will be about four years old. When and if I revise my book I'll look closely again.


> You're being very insulting. I'm not "carefully avoiding" anything. That would mean that I'm really not interested in the truth, but only in one-upping you. -You are using the old trick of the best defense is a good offence. I didn't insult you, as you interpret. You are avoiding issues, perhaps because you don't even realize they are issues, having a blind sense of what you think must be right. 
> 
> What I was doing in all innocence was trying to explain why the subjects report a continuous experience of walking down a tunnel, speaking with dead people they knew beforehand were dead who inform them of people who have died that they didn't know about (broken telepathy), and thinking they're walking into the afterlife only to be told that it is not yet their time. -Think about this. Why do so many people with an NDE have exactly the same event of walking down the tunnel? Some are told about a dead acquaintance. Others are simple told to go back. Many feel love and peace. Why do they always see the dead? The consistent pattern might suggest a built-in code in brain. Only a small number might experience you proposal of broken telepathy. Do you have any statistics on how many people are telepathic? I don't. Or are you proposing that every person with friends as a telepathic conection with them? I don't consider telepathy as supernatural. My wife has it and her powers at times are amazing (and described here awhile ago).
>
> When people do that I immediately start thinking they're confessing their own sins: a case of Freudian projection.-Freud is very passe'. All of us sin, but I'm not transferring anything to you. Relax. I'm just very precise and direct. What you and dhw are doing would drive me nuts.
> 
> "Operating room scenes are not passed telepathically."
> 
> How do you know that? That statement looks like it came right out of the blue, like sheer speculation on your part. It reads just like what you want to believe (wishful thinking), because it supports your religious beliefs.-My religious beliefs are my own invention, just like yours are for you.
>
> In the extreme state of being near flatline, the brain may very well be receptive to telepathic "vibrations" or whatever they are. It seems to me that telephathic communications are much more probable than messages from the beyond.-The out of body experience the basilar artery lady had, has nothing to do with God or His beyond. This is an issue of her ability to discover actual events. I stated it was set up that she could not hear, she was in deep freeze with low blood pressure and low blood volume.-Her consciousness picked this up. How? Again, I don't know. Nothing supernatural. Very unexpected and very unusual. But van Lommel suggesting that the consciousness might still be coherently present despite a very disabled brain, acting separate from the body,is an interesting proposal. Your telepathy theory as just as weird as van Lommel's suggestion. Remember, this is not the only story of this sort. They are multiple. They require a scientific explanation, if possible. I'm not even sure how a proper investigation can be done with the OOB's. Many of them, as you will find if you search, have third party corroboration. -The lady who floated up to the third floor and saw a sneaker on a file cabinet top, shoe lace under the heel (!!!), throught an outside window, while in the ER under myocardial infact resuscitiation. Attested to by a social worker and a psychiatrist. I can give names and particulars. Happened many years ago. In the literature. Telepathy. Not in this one, no way. A totally different experience than those I have told you before. This website is no place for me to tell you everything I have read and discovered. If you really want to learn about this, I can give you a bibliography, which will be about four years old. When and if I revise my book I'll look closely again.


> So I wouldn't put too much supernatural stock in NDE or out of body experiences.-The subject you are carefully avoiding is that valid and truthful information is being passed on during these states, with third party corroboration. That is what needs an explanation. How do the experiencers get this info? The lady with the basilar artery problem had no way to hear or see what she stated she experienced. You can't talk your way around this. It is something different than the theory you tried. And I don't know an answer, even with my background in human anatomy and physiology. Operating room scenes are not passed telepathically.


> The primordial goo you speak of above is what I think of as God; the All That IS. Goo...God..good. The dualistic realms of this goo are light and dark and one cannot be without the other. I think of light and darkness like male and female. -Just to clarify, I relate the darkness to the male aspect and the light to the female aspect. No prejudice...just experience.-bb

Personally, I think the concept of a pre-existing "chaos" that existed eternally before our universe is a form of Dualism, where two independent "substances" always existed, God and chaos, and at some time (or times) God can give form to chaos. 
> 
> I've always had trouble with dualistic cosmologies. I can't help wondering how two completely independent "realms" that have always been and presumably always will be can manage to interact if they truly are independent of each other. Maybe it's my limited imagination, but I can't help asking, who or what gave rise to the dualism? Whatever gave rise to it, that is what is primordial, and whatever it is escapes dualism.-The primordial goo you speak of above is what I think of as God; the All That IS. Goo...God..good. The dualistic realms of this goo are light and dark and one cannot be without the other. I think of light and darkness like male and female. As they intertwine, they produce/create/process varied realms of being that reflect (twinkle) varied aspects (rainbow of colors) of the qualities of both....or can be put, the many faces of God that our eyes behold. But I believe there is a 3rd quality that is not considered in the "dualistic cosmologies" and without which there would only be light and darkness, and maybe even multifaces of God, but nothing more...and this 3rd quality is love (for lack of a better word).-I think of an enlightened being as one that holds more light than darkness within their own realm of being and therefore can connect to/with this quality of love that is within the All That Is.-This may not be what you are speaking of but is what came to mind in answer to your pondering.


> > The brain functon before unconsciousness is 10 seconds after the heart stops pumping. The lower centers controlling autonomic activity (breathing for example) takes several minutes to stop. The EEG reads cortical activity where thought occurs. This patient took 45 minutes to resuscitate, coming in from a pasture where he collapsed. His eyes are shut and he is totally unresponsive to stimuli appllied by the resuscitators. This is not the only case inthe world literature. There are many. Skeptical attitudes like yours are very important as this inquiry goes on. I don't know how to explain it physiologically.
> > 
> > Then, there is the lady with the deep basilar artery (Base of Brain) aneuryism, taken down to 60 degrees hypothermia,eyes taped shut, intubated and oxygenated, ears covered with a sounding device to give little EEG spikes so as to reassure everyone they have't killed the brain. These ear devices totally excluded external sound and produced 100 decibel clicks.They drained out most of her blood to take pressure off the aneurysm. Then the craniotomy saw is taken out and used, 90 minutes after annesthia started. She came outof her body and floated over the scene, while of course, completly immobilized and tied down to the table. Any inadvertent move by her body could have led to disaster. She acurately descibed the way the saw looked, the sound of the saw and a female voice discussing the size of her arteries and veins! The surgical team corroborated all of her observations afterward. Michael Sabom, M.D. (Light & Death, 1998.)-This is out of body stuff. Frank: How do you think this works. I don't really know, but it again raises the issue of consciousness that is separate from the brain itself, which can't be functioning much under the circumstances.


> The brain functon before unconsciousness is 10 seconds after the heart stops pumping. The lower centers controlling autonomic activity (breathing for example) takes several minutes to stop. The EEG reads cortical activity where thought occurs. This patient took 45 minutes to resuscitate, coming in from a pasture where he collapsed. His eyes are shut and he is totally unresponsive to stimuli appllied by the resuscitators. This is not the only case inthe world literature. There are many. Skeptical attitudes like yours are very important as this inquiry goes on. I don't know how to explain it physiologically.
> 
> Then, there is the lady with the deep basilar artery (Base of Brain) aneuryism, taken down to 60 degrees hypothermia,eyes taped shut, intubated and oxygenated, ears covered with a sounding device to give little EEG spikes so as to reassure everyone they have't killed the brain. These ear devices totally excluded external sound and produced 100 decibel clicks.They drained out most of her blood to take pressure off the aneurysm. Then the craniotomy saw is taken out and used, 90 minutes after annesthia started. She came outof her body and floated over the scene, while of course, completly immobilized and tied down to the table. Any inadvertent move by her body could have led to disaster. She acurately descibed the way the saw looked, the sound of the saw and a female voice discussing the size of her arteries and veins! The surgical team corroborated all of her observations afterward. Michael Sabom, M.D. (Light & Death, 1998.)


> I love that quotation you give from that Physics Forum that scoffs at the idea of creation ex nihilo. As I pointed out in my previous post, Griffin also scoffs at this idea, but subscribes to the Biblical notion of "creation out of chaos," which to my mind leads to an untenable dualism, which is why I favor universes being created out of particles that God spins off of himself. This preserves monism and also explains why the universe seems to be unlimited and evolving relentlessly into higher and higher forms.-I loved the quote also. Why Stenger isn't really taken to the woodshed is beyond me. He is trying to force atheism to its outer limits. When you are retired and tenure is not at stake, anything can happen.


> If you look back in the threads you will find we discussed this question quite extensively before you came along. I was referring to the idea, based on quantum theory, that the universe began as a "fluctuation in the void". The physicist Victor J. Stenger favours this view. His recent book "Quantun Gods" concludes with a chapter on "Nothingism".-I know that this idea is also expressed in a paper by NASA. Again, I ask, is there any other support by some of the cosmologic authorities other than Stenger. -Space-time is not an absolute void, but has potential quantum particles, popping in and out of our reality. An absolute void has a true nothing.-From Physics Forums on line:-Re: Nothingness and the rise of something ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I talked to Vic Stenger about his ideas a while back in an attempt to suggest that he is just reinventing Hegel's Absolute Idea, the spiritual unity that would be prior to the world of forms. George Spencer Brown's Laws of Form gives mathematical model of this idea, a calculus that captures the metaphysical scheme of Taoism, Buddhism, Sufism, etc. Russell praised this calculus highly but failed to see its true meaning. Stenger wouldn't even take an interest, mysticism being axiomatically a load of nonsense. -Personally, I would say that a rational thinker must find ex nihilo creation a load of nonsense, and that Stenger, Guth and others who favour it are poor metaphysicians. They don't seem to realise that the idea of the origin of the universe as ''nothing spontaneously breaking symmetry to become something' is just mysticism. Except, of course, that it would only appear to by Nothing becoming Something. If this process were any more than an appearance then the ancient paradox that causes normally sensible physicists to consider ex nihilo creation would arise. -I wish people like Stenger would do some research into these things, then he would not be so casually dismissing the only idea that works.