DAVID: You cling to an infinity of chances that energy matter can form consciousness. Monkeys typing Shakespeare! Defies logic.

dhw: Yes, it defies logic, as does the concept of an eternal consciousness that has no source but has the knowledge to design a material universe and material life out of its own immateriality. I find myself unable to “cling to” either hypothesis. That is why I am an agnostic. I should add, as usual, that this means I am wrong one way or the other, which is why I continue to ask questions and to come up with "conjectures".

Please continue.

dhw: I have made the same point in the "brief guide", and we all seem to agree there has to be a first cause. That does not mean the first cause has to be a universal intelligence called "God". A far more pertinent question is the origin of consciousness. Did it always exist in the most extreme, top-down form imaginable (i.e. with the built-in knowledge to create a universe and life out of nothing), or did it evolve bottom upwards from eternal interaction between matter and energy producing an infinite number of combinations?
The statement that the universe had a beginning depends on the big bang theory. Not only is this suspect, but even if it is true, it does not tell us what happened before the big bang - hence the possibility of eternal matter/energy etc.

DAVID: You cling to an infinity of chances that energy matter can form consciousness. Monkeys typing Shakespeare! Defies logic.

Yes, it defies logic, as does the concept of an eternal consciousness that has no source but has the knowledge to design a material universe and material life out of its own immateriality. I find myself unable to “cling to” either hypothesis. That is why I am an agnostic. I should add, as usual, that this means I am wrong one way or the other, which is why I continue to ask questions and to come up with "conjectures".

DAVID: Two minutes:

https://youtu.be/hwWgJi5lb58

dhw: I have made the same point in the "brief guide", and we all seem to agree there has to be a first cause. That does not mean the first cause has to be a universal intelligence called "God". A far more pertinent question is the origin of consciousness. Did it always exist in the most extreme, top-down form imaginable (i.e. with the built-in knowledge to create a universe and life out of nothing), or did it evolve bottom upwards from eternal interaction between matter and energy producing an infinite number of combinations?

The statement that the universe had a beginning depends on the big bang theory. Not only is this suspect, but even if it is true, it does not tell us what happened before the big bang - hence the possibility of eternal matter/energy etc.

You cling to an infinity of chances that energy matter can form consciousness. Monkeys typing Shakespeare! Defies logic.

DAVID: Two minutes:

https://youtu.be/hwWgJi5lb58

I have made the same point in the "brief guide", and we all seem to agree there has to be a first cause. That does not mean the first cause has to be a universal intelligence called "God". A far more pertinent question is the origin of consciousness. Did it always exist in the most extreme, top-down form imaginable (i.e. with the built-in knowledge to create a universe and life out of nothing), or did it evolve bottom upwards from eternal interaction between matter and energy producing an infinite number of combinations?

The statement that the universe had a beginning depends on the big bang theory. Not only is this suspect, but even if it is true, it does not tell us what happened before the big bang - hence the possibility of eternal matter/energy etc.

https://youtu.be/hwWgJi5lb58