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The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

George Jelliss — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 10:53:36 +0000

I expect that is what Nietzsche meant - that it is time humans got over their need for the concept of a god or gods, but only Uebermensch like him had the brain power to manage without. My view of humans is not so patronising. It is time all this childish religious drivel was forgotten. It's easy if you try!

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

dhw — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 07:14:23 +0000

GEORGE: I don't go along with Nietzsche's "God is dead" however, because I don't think there was ever a god that lived in the first place, other than in the imagination of humans.-Matt hasn't actually picked you up on this, and so maybe I'm wrong, but I always assumed that Nietzsche meant the concept was dead, i.e. there was no basis for believing in God. As for the continuation I quoted, I thought it meant that Man in his misery would continue to need this unsubstantiated being (shadow). But there we go again, interpreting texts!

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

xeno6696 — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 03:19:55 +0000

Yes, I've always assumed that was a reference to Plato's parable of the cave. > > I don't go along with Nietzsche's "God is dead" however, because I don't think there was ever a god that lived in the first place, other than in the imagination of humans.-How do I say this without causing offense... -You're thinking too linearly here. "God is dead" is a multireference. He uses it to encompass the thinking of Emerson, Luther, and Paul. By association, Christ. -Religions were a living, fluid, and breathing thing until the concept of canonization arrived. There used to be alot of debate and change about religious thinking over time. Peter and his church destroyed much of that... hence God--the process--the "ever changing" of Heraclitus--died a slow death. -Nietzsche hated dogmatism in all its forms. Even if he wasn't a believer...

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

xeno6696 — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 02:36:55 +0000

> > I have found a continuation of this which seems worth quoting. (Nietzsche used the expression several times in different contexts.) I'm sure George will like it. > > > > "God is dead: but considering the state the species Man is in, there will perhaps be caves, for ages yet, in which his shadow will be shown." > > Refering to Plato?-Oooh... that's slick, most people don't catch that!!!! It's a solid reference, full of much of what makes Nietzsche maddeningly difficult for some people. Read this literally, and you'll think he's saying that "God" is just one of the shadows in Plato's cave. Most theists don't get past "God is dead." -This begs the question, if God is a shadow... what is God a shadow OF?

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

xeno6696 — Fri, 24 Sep 2010 02:28:54 +0000

> > Makes some excellent historical analysis that looks at what happens when a meme becomes dominant and then tries to force others out of the picture. > > Do you really believe in memes?-Meme = an idea which carries some kind of selective pressure. By itself an idea can be powerful--but an idea that humans surround themselves around and is used to coerce or create social pressure--that's where the "evolution" takes place. -Ideas are always under selective pressure. Especially used in context of "The Lucifer Principle" it makes complete sense. -I decided to google the word "meme" to see why you don't like it... Dawkins?

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

George Jelliss — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:22:38 +0000

Yes, I've always assumed that was a reference to Plato's parable of the cave.-I don't go along with Nietzsche's "God is dead" however, because I don't think there was ever a god that lived in the first place, other than in the imagination of humans.

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

David Turell — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:27:35 +0000

> I have found a continuation of this which seems worth quoting. (Nietzsche used the expression several times in different contexts.) I'm sure George will like it. > > "God is dead: but considering the state the species Man is in, there will perhaps be caves, for ages yet, in which his shadow will be shown."-Refering to Plato?

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

dhw — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:15:10 +0000

MATT: "Gott ist tott!"-Ach du lieber Himmel! "Gott" has two Ts but "tot" only has one. Not even Nietzsche could make it rhyme! -I have found a continuation of this which seems worth quoting. (Nietzsche used the expression several times in different contexts.) I'm sure George will like it.-"God is dead: but considering the state the species Man is in, there will perhaps be caves, for ages yet, in which his shadow will be shown."

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

David Turell — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 04:27:26 +0000

> Makes some excellent historical analysis that looks at what happens when a meme becomes dominant and then tries to force others out of the picture.-Do you really believe in memes?

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

xeno6696 — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 00:00:00 +0000

Some people need religion, some need politics, some need science. Some want all three, and some want nothing to do with any of them. They each fill a niche. The problem is when anyone of them gains too much authority.-You should read a book called "The Lucifer Principle." Makes some excellent historical analysis that looks at what happens when a meme becomes dominant and then tries to force others out of the picture.

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

xeno6696 — Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:58:25 +0000

I would disagree with that. It's main failings are its thirst for control(power), and its arrogance(changing the rules laid out in the book it claims to be based on) > > The best rule is think for yourself. Religions are made up of folks like us and also not like us, the ones who don't think. Theology is man's guesses at what is going on. Our guesses are just as good. Currently I'll agree with the arrogance part of your comment. After the reformation they never got their power back, and I don't think that is an issue now.-Heh. And the enlightenment struck the final blow. -"Gott ist tott!"

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

xeno6696 — Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:56:55 +0000

I am not totally in disagreement with what you said, but I have seen so much crap about the pope this last week that I don't even want to start on that topic. :P Glad you got it off your chest though. > > The Catholic Church's rigid authoritarianism and rigid structure is its main failing. If lay people are forced to procreate (rape, incest) way can't priests enjoy the same necessary function?-Because no one wants to pay death benefits to the Priest's family. The church was losing alot of money to wives before the rule was put down that no priests could marry.

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

Balance_Maintained — Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:44:57 +0000

Some people need religion, some need politics, some need science. Some want all three, and some want nothing to do with any of them. They each fill a niche. The problem is when anyone of them gains too much authority.

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

George Jelliss — Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:29:41 +0000

It was a mixture of state visit and pastoral visit.-dhw's observations are bagman's news to anyone who follows the humanist and secularist websites. For example:-NSS http://www.secularism.org.uk/nailing-the-popes-lies.html-BHA http://www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/652-Pharyngula (P.Z.Myers) http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/09/list_of_hitler_quotes_in_honor.php-I am "against religion" but that doesn't stop me having some Christian friends.

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

Balance_Maintained — Mon, 20 Sep 2010 18:14:51 +0000

They might not have their power back, but it is not for a lack of trying. The Popes visit to England as a State visit, not a pastoral visit, and he stated directly that he wanted the Church to be re-involved in the State in England. By the way, the state paid the bill for his visit as well. Also, he is trying to reconcile the Church of England with the RCC.

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

David Turell — Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:01:47 +0000

I would disagree with that. It's main failings are its thirst for control(power), and its arrogance(changing the rules laid out in the book it claims to be based on)-The best rule is think for yourself. Religions are made up of folks like us and also not like us, the ones who don't think. Theology is man's guesses at what is going on. Our guesses are just as good. Currently I'll agree with the arrogance part of your comment. After the reformation they never got their power back, and I don't think that is an issue now.

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

Balance_Maintained — Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:41:32 +0000

I would disagree with that. It's main failings are its thirst for control(power), and its arrogance(changing the rules laid out in the book it claims to be based on)

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

David Turell — Mon, 20 Sep 2010 14:15:41 +0000

I am not totally in disagreement with what you said, but I have seen so much crap about the pope this last week that I don't even want to start on that topic. :P Glad you got it off your chest though.-The Catholic Church's rigid authoritarianism and rigid structure is its main failing. If lay people are forced to procreate (rape, incest) way can't priests enjoy the same necessary function?

The Pope\'s Visit (reply)

Balance_Maintained — Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:41:01 +0000

I am not totally in disagreement with what you said, but I have seen so much crap about the pope this last week that I don't even want to start on that topic. :P Glad you got it off your chest though.

The Pope\'s Visit

dhw — Mon, 20 Sep 2010 10:28:55 +0000

I am not against religion, and have great affection and admiration for my Christian friends, but I am against prejudice and hypocrisy, and have been sickened by some of the remarks the Pope is reported to have made during his 4-day visit to Britain. One always has to be careful about believing what the newspapers say, but here are some of the comments reported:-1) The Nazi desire to eradicate God led to the Holocaust.-Where does he get his logic from? If the Nazis wished to eradicate God, why did they slaughter the Jews and other minorities, and not the Catholics and Protestants as well? And while on this subject, why did Pius XII not lift a finger to help the Jews?-2) Referring to Britain as a multicultural society, he attacked "the more aggressive forms of secularism", and pleaded that this society should not "obscure the Christian foundation that underpins its freedoms."-What freedoms does the Catholic Church underpin in this country? If it had its way, homosexuals would be ostracized, there would be no women priests, contraception would be outlawed, divorcees would be unable to remarry, raped women would be unable to abort their babies...The only freedom the Catholic Church underpins is the freedom to live and worship in the manner prescribed by the Catholic Church.-3) He rues the damage that "the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life" did in the last century.-Perhaps it has not occurred to him that the presence of God, religion and "virtue" in public life still leads to religious conflicts between different sects, as it has done throughout the centuries, with the Catholics particularly prominent. And perhaps he hasn't made the link between God, religion, public life, fundamentalism and terrorism. As for "virtue"...well, let's look at 4):-4) In a briefing to journalists, he is reported to have described paedophilia as an illness whose sufferers had lost their free will. -Aren't we supposed to regard sick people as unfortunate victims? What criminal wouldn't jump at such a defence? In his time as Prefect of the Sacred Congregation, these appalling crimes were simply covered up, and according to some reports he was part of the cover-up. Why has it taken so long for him and for the whole institution to repent, to flagellate itself in public, to acknowledge its despicable behaviour? Because until the revelations became unstoppable, they thought they could get away with it. Virtue? In normal public life, paedophiles are reported to the police. In the Catholic Church they were (are?) simply moved to different parishes.-5) God, religion and virtue in public life? How about Bush ... Blair ... Iraq?-There now, I've got that off my chest. And Joseph Ratzinger has gone back to the independent state of Vatican City, where they make their own rules under the pretext that they and they alone know God's will.