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<title>AgnosticWeb.com - Extinctions:  the big five</title>
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<description>An Agnostic&#039;s Brief Guide to the Universe</description>
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<title>Extinctions:  the big five (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With some causative reasons:</p>
<p><a href="https://cosmosmagazine.com/palaeontology/big-five-extinctions">https://cosmosmagazine.com/palaeontology/big-five-extinctions</a></p>
<p>&quot;End Ordovician, 444 million years ago, 86% of species lost</p>
<p>&quot;Graptolites, like most Ordovician life, were sea creatures. They were filter-feeding animals and colony builders. Their demise over about a million years was probably caused by a short, severe ice age that lowered sea levels, possibly triggered by the uplift of the Appalachians. The newly exposed silicate rock sucked CO2 out of the atmosphere, chilling the planet.</p>
<p>&quot;Late Devonian, 375 million years ago, 75% of species lost</p>
<p>&quot;Trilobites were the most diverse and abundant of the animals that appeared in the Cambrian explosion 550 million years ago. Their great success was helped by their spiky armour and multifaceted eyes. They survived the first great extinction but were nearly wiped out in the second. The likely culprit was the newly evolved land plants that emerged, covering the planet during the Devonian period. Their deep roots stirred up the earth, releasing nutrients into the ocean. This might have triggered algal blooms which sucked oxygen out of the water, suffocating bottom dwellers like the trilobites.</p>
<p>&quot;End Permian, 251 million years ago, 96% of species lost</p>
<p>&quot;Known as “the great dying”, this was by far the worst extinction event ever seen; it nearly ended life on Earth. The tabulate corals were lost in this period – today’s corals are an entirely different group. What caused it? A perfect storm of natural catastrophes. A cataclysmic eruption near Siberia blasted CO2 into the atmosphere. Methanogenic bacteria responded by belching out methane, a potent greenhouse gas. Global temperatures surged while oceans acidified and stagnated, belching poisonous hydrogen sulfide.  “It set life back 300 million years,” says Schmidt. Rocks after this period record no coral reefs or coal deposits.</p>
<p>&quot;End Triassic, 200 million years ago, 80% of species lost</p>
<p>&quot;Palaeontologists were baffled about the origin of these toothy fragments, mistaking them for bits of clams or sponges. But the discovery of an intact fossil in Scotland in the 1980s finally revealed their owner – a jawless eel-like vertebrate named the conodont which boasted this remarkable set of teeth lining its mouth and throat. They were one of the first structures built from hydroxyapatite, a calcium-rich mineral that remains  a key component of our own bones and teeth today.  Of all the great extinctions, the one that ended the Triassic is the most enigmatic. No clear cause has been found.</p>
<p>&quot;End Cretaceous, 66 million years ago, 76% of all species lost</p>
<p>&quot;The delicate leafy sutures decorating this shell represent some advanced engineering, providing the fortification the squid-like ammonite required to withstand the pressure of deep dives in pursuit of its prey. Dinosaurs may have ruled the land during the Cretaceous period but the oceans belonged to the ammonites. But volcanic activity and climate change already placed the ammonites under stress. The asteroid impact that ended the dinosaurs’ reign provided the final blow. Only a few dwindling species of ammonites survived. Today, the ammonites’ oldest surviving relative is the nautilus. Will it survive the sixth great extinction?&quot; </p>
<p>Comment:  Raup claims in his book, all who lost had bad luck. The  website has great pictures with a great artists version of a trilobite</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=34751</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=34751</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2020 00:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: If I wear my theist hat, I can certainly see that a divinely designed mechanism producing all kinds of weird, platypussy wonders might serve the purpose of satisfying curiosity, providing relief from eternal boredom, having fun, learning new things etc. I can also see in all organisms, including the platypus, the purpose of survival. But what I cannot see is how the platypus - as unique in its way as homo sapiens, being the sole survivor of its wider family - can be part of your God&amp;apos;s great plan to produce you and me. And you can multiply that example by all the other millions of extant and extinct natural wonders and evolutionary innovations which you insist also required God&amp;apos;s personal intervention. - You wear two hats, so you must be two-headed. I still invoke the balance of nature to explain it, plus a drive to extreme inventiveness to see what evolves.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22719</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22719</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2016 18:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DAVID: <em>If one looks for purpose one finds it</em>.-dhw: <em>I&amp;apos;m still waiting for a platypussy purpose, but thank you for this very honest assessment of your thought processes.</em>-DAVID: <em>I&amp;apos;m sorry you can&amp;apos;t see purpose.</em>-If I wear my theist hat, I can certainly see that a divinely designed mechanism producing all kinds of weird, platypussy wonders might serve the purpose of satisfying curiosity, providing relief from eternal boredom, having fun, learning new things etc. I can also see in all organisms, including the platypus, the purpose of survival. But what I cannot see is how the platypus - as unique in its way as homo sapiens, being the sole survivor of its wider family - can be part of your God&amp;apos;s great plan to produce you and me. And you can multiply that example by all the other millions of extant and extinct natural wonders and evolutionary innovations which you insist also required God&amp;apos;s personal intervention.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22714</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22714</guid>
<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2016 10:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>DAVID: <em>If one looks for purpose one finds it.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: I&amp;apos;m still waiting for a platypussy purpose, but thank you for this very honest assessment of your thought processes.-I&amp;apos;m sorry you can&amp;apos;t see purpose.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22707</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22707</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dhw: <em>If prediction was the art of looking retrospectively at what has already happened, we would all be infallible prophets! However, knowing what has happened does not mean that it had to happen that way - only that it did happen that way.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>However, if a result is highly unusual, as in the production of human and their level of consciousness, one can strongly suggest something or somebody monkeyed with the works</em>.-If God had to dabble, you can hardly say the appearance of humans was predictable! Here is the exchange that started this discussion:&amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>If God is at work the process is working. Humans are here. Not at all unpredictable</em>.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;Dhw: <em>I thought your whole &amp;#147;difference&amp;#148; campaign was based on your belief that they were NOT predictable, and it needed some really special dabbling from your God to produce them</em>.-One moment we have evolution geared to the inevitable production of humans (predictable), and the next, God has to step in and monkey - nice pun! - with the works (unpredictable). Well, let&amp;apos;s drop the subject. It&amp;apos;s pointless anyway. No one can possibly know what was or wasn&amp;apos;t predictable. Humans are here, and the process produced them. That&amp;apos;s all we know.-DAVID (under &amp;#147;<strong>Convoluted human evolution</strong>&amp;#148;) <em>DNA has shown that our evolutionary tree is very bushy and more like a river delta with streams in every direction:</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;https://aeon.co/ideas/human-evolution-is-more-a-muddy-delta-than-a-branching-tree?utm_s...&amp;#13;&amp;#10;dhw: <em>If your God specially wanted to create homo sapiens, why could he not simply have created homo sapiens (as he did in Genesis)?</em>-DAVID:<em> Did you miss the point? The other streams interbred with humans giving them immunity and other attributes the humans had not developed and were helped by.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;</em>-So your God was incapable of giving homo sapiens his (limited) immunity and other attributes without first guiding/dabbling other species of human into existence and then guiding/dabbling them to extinction? Here&amp;apos;s another hypothesis: they just evolved (perhaps as per intelligent-cell-mechanism), and natural selection resulted in them dying out and homo sapiens surviving.&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID&amp;apos;s comment: <em>Looks like a guided evolution to me since the pattern is so unusual compared to other primate species.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;dhw;<em> I wonder why God would have guided evolution to produce the duckbilled platypus&amp;#133;.We should not ask such questions, should we? Whatever is here was meant to be here, so God must have guided it to be here.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>If one looks for purpose one finds it.</em>-I&amp;apos;m still waiting for a platypussy purpose, but thank you for this very honest assessment of your thought processes.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22703</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22703</guid>
<pubDate>Mon, 29 Aug 2016 11:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>dhw:I would suggest that evolution is the consequence of an in-built drive (possibly built in by your God) for survival and or improvement, and somewhere along the evolutionary line interbreeding may well have played a role in the production and survival of most new species (broad and narrow senses). - Agreed&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: If prediction was the art of looking retrospectively at what has already happened, we would all be infallible prophets! However, knowing what has happened does not mean that it had to happen that way - only that it did happen that way. - However, if a result is highly unusual, as in the production of human and their level of consciousness, one can strongly suggest something or somebody monkeyed with the works.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; DAVID (under &amp;#147;<strong>Convoluted human evolution</strong>&amp;#148;) <em>DNA has shown that our evolutionary tree is very bushy and more like a river delta with streams in every direction:</em> - &gt; <a href="https://aeon.co/ideas/human-evolution-is-more-a-muddy-delta-than-a-branching-tree?utm_s...&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt;">https://aeon.co/ideas/human-evolution-is-more-a-muddy-delta-than-a-branching-tree?utm_s...</a> &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt;  If your God specially wanted to create homo sapiens, why could he not simply have created homo sapiens (as he did in Genesis)? - Did you miss thee point? The other streams interbred with humans giving them immunity and other attributes the humans had not developed and were helped by. -  &gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; DAVID&amp;apos;s comment: <em>Looks like a guided evolution to me since the pattern is so unusual compared to other primate species</em>.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw; We should not ask such questions, should we? Whatever is here was meant to be here, so God must have guided it to be here. - If one looks for purpose one finds it.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22700</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22700</guid>
<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2016 23:36:45 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dhw: <em>If we believe in common descent, evolution only shows us that humans descended from apes, just as every other organism descended from preceding organisms. Or are you telling us that there was a strong drive for earlier organisms to produce weaverbirds, elephants and duckbilled platypuses</em>?&amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>The only strong drive I see is for humans. See today, convoluted human evolution entry.</em>-If you believe in common descent, every species is the result of convoluted evolution. I don&amp;apos;t know what is the difference between a strong drive, a drive and a weak drive. I would suggest that evolution is the consequence of an in-built drive (possibly built in by your God) for survival and or improvement, and somewhere along the evolutionary line interbreeding may well have played a role in the production and survival of most new species (broad and narrow senses).&amp;#13;&amp;#10;  &amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>Their</em> [human] <em>physical and mental capacities are different in kind from apes&amp;#133;</em> &amp;#13;&amp;#10;dhw: <em>So if they are different in kind, how does that make them predictable?</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>I&amp;apos;m looking retrospectively at how we appeared.</em>-If prediction was the art of looking retrospectively at what has already happened, we would all be infallible prophets! However, knowing what has happened does not mean that it had to happen that way - only that it did happen that way.-DAVID (under &amp;#147;<strong>Convoluted human evolution</strong>&amp;#148;) <em>DNA has shown that our evolutionary tree is very bushy and more like a river delta with streams in every direction:</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;https://aeon.co/ideas/human-evolution-is-more-a-muddy-delta-than-a-branching-tree?utm_s...-I like the image, and can see a clear parallel, as the streams simply make their own way from the delta, as conditions dictate. If your God specially wanted to create homo sapiens, why could he not simply have created homo sapiens (as he did in Genesis)? Ah, but your hindsight powers of prediction tell us that this is what happened, and so this is the predictable way God must have wanted to do it. We should not even suggest that this is the way organisms followed their own paths to survival (Sapiens) and extinction (Neanderthals and Denisovans).  God - see your next comment - had to guide the latter to oblivion.-DAVID&amp;apos;s comment: <em>Looks like a guided evolution to me since the pattern is so unusual compared to other primate species</em>.-Most species (general sense) evolve into different species (specialized sense): a quick google reveals that there are 13 species of crocodile, 18 species of bat in the UK alone, and 88 species of cetaceans, all presumably descended from a common ancestor, and millions of species (both senses) have become extinct. Other species of human also became extinct, which proves&amp;#133;what? The duckbilled platypus, you will be fascinated to hear, is <em>&amp;#147;the sole living representative of its family (Ornithorhynchidae) and genus (Ornithorhynchus), though a number of related species have been found in the fossil record</em>.&amp;#148; (Wikipedia) I wonder why God would have guided evolution to produce the duckbilled platypus. But then I keep wondering why God would have specially guided the weaverbird to build its nest. We should not ask such questions, should we? Whatever is here was meant to be here, so God must have guided it to be here.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22696</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22696</guid>
<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2016 15:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>dhw: However, I take Raup&amp;apos;s point and yours: it&amp;apos;s bad luck either way on the organisms slaughtered either by chance or by God&amp;apos;s choice. Not sure how such a comment helps us understand the process of evolution, though.-Getting rid of the old allows for new species to develop,i.e., dinosaurs, no more.-&gt; dhw: If we believe in common descent, evolution only shows us that humans descended from apes, just as every other organism descended from preceding organisms. Or are you telling us that there was a strong drive for earlier organisms to produce weaverbirds, elephants and duckbilled platypuses?-The only strong drive I see is for humans. See today, convoluted human evolution  entry.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt;  &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; DAVID: <em>Their physical and mental capacities are different in kind from apes, and in this portion of known evolutionary history extinctions played no role unless one looks back 60+ million years ago to Chicxulub and goodbye dinos. </em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: So if they are different in kind, how does that make them predictable?-I&amp;apos;m looking retrospectively at how we appeared.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22690</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22690</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2016 20:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DAVID: <em>We don&amp;apos;t know if the Chicxulub asteroid was God&amp;apos;s doing or not. The &amp;apos;bad luck&amp;apos; quote is in the title of David Raup&amp;apos;s highly regarded book. What seems to be true is that with each giant extinction, evolution advanced to more complex forms. If God is at work the process is working. Humans are here. Not at all unpredictable.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;dhw: <em>You obviously share Raup&amp;apos;s view that most extinctions are bad luck, since you have stated it yourself. Bad luck and good luck are synonymous with chance. This means your God either couldn&amp;apos;t or didn&amp;apos;t want to control the environment, except for the occasional dabble.</em> -DAVID: <em>Raup&amp;apos;s &amp;apos;bad luck&amp;apos; is his way of saying that sudden environmental changes caused extinctions. My interpretation and his is that this means the life that became extinct couldn&amp;apos;t adapt fast enough to survive, no more. It does not imply God hurled Chicxulub or not. He may have.</em>-I doubt if many people would deny that sudden changes caused extinctions, or that those organisms which couldn&amp;apos;t survive didn&amp;apos;t survive. I thought we&amp;apos;d long passed that stage of discovery. My question is how your God&amp;apos;s control or non-control of the environment reflects on your concept of divine preplanning. However, I take Raup&amp;apos;s point and yours: it&amp;apos;s bad luck either way on the organisms slaughtered either by chance or by God&amp;apos;s choice. Not sure how such a comment helps us understand the process of evolution, though.-dhw: <em>As for humans, leaving aside the question of who or what would have been capable of making predictions, I thought your whole &amp;#147;difference&amp;#148; campaign was based on your belief that they were NOT predictable, and it needed some really special dabbling from your God to produce them.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>You are off on a tangent. Evolution shows us there was a strong drive to create humans out of apes</em>. -It is you who jumped from extinctions to greater complexity to humans. If we believe in common descent, evolution only shows us that humans descended from apes, just as every other organism descended from preceding organisms. Or are you telling us that there was a strong drive for earlier organisms to produce weaverbirds, elephants and duckbilled platypuses? &amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>Their physical and mental capacities are different in kind from apes, and in this portion of known evolutionary history extinctions played no role unless one looks back 60+ million years ago to Chicxulub and goodbye dinos. </em>-So if they are different in kind, how does that make them predictable?</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22686</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22686</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2016 06:26:07 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>DAVID: <em>We don&amp;apos;t know if the Chicxulub asteroid was God&amp;apos;s doing or not. The &amp;apos;bad luck&amp;apos; quote is in the title of David Raup&amp;apos;s highly regarded book. What seems to be true is that with each giant extinction, evolution advanced to more complex forms. If God is at work the process is working. Humans are here. Not at all unpredictable.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: You obviously share Raup&amp;apos;s view that most extinctions are bad luck, since you have stated it yourself. Bad luck and good luck are synonymous with chance. This means your God either couldn&amp;apos;t or didn&amp;apos;t want to control the environment, except for the occasional dabble. -Raup&amp;apos;s &amp;apos;bad luck&amp;apos; is his way of saying that sudden environmental changes caused extinctions. My interpretation and his is that this means the life that became extinct couldn&amp;apos;t adapt fast enough to survive, no more. It does not imply God hurled Chicxulub or not. He may have.-&gt; dhw: And if he couldn&amp;apos;t or didn&amp;apos;t control the environment, &amp;#147;most&amp;#148; of the consequences would also have been unpredictable (part of the great entertainment, perhaps). As for humans, leaving aside the question of who or what would have been capable of making predictions, I thought your whole &amp;#147;difference&amp;#148; campaign was based on your belief that they were NOT predictable, and it needed some really special dabbling from your God to produce them.-You are off on a tangent. Evolution shows us there was a strong drive to create humans out of apes. Their physical and mental capacities are different in kind from apes, and in this portion of known evolutionary history extinctions played no role unless one looks back 60+ million years ago to Chicxulub and goodbye dinos.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22680</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22680</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2016 14:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David&amp;apos;s comment: <em>This study shows the balance of nature is so important and current environment is part of that balance. Most extinctions are bad luck, described in previous entries.</em>-dhw: <em>Balance of nature simply means relations between living organisms and their environment. If the environment goes bust, the organisms go bust. And if extinctions are bad luck, it makes nonsense of the whole concept of divine planning and preprogramming. Your God carefully creates all these wonderful creatures, and then a bit of bad luck kills 99% of them! The whole process reeks of chance, and the only theistic explanation I can see is that this is how your God wanted it. In other words, he created all the conditions that would lead to an unpredictable ebb and flow of comings and goings (though he could do the occasional dabble if he felt like it). If you disagree, please give me an alternative theistic explanation for what you call &amp;#147;bad luck&amp;#148;.</em>-DAVID: <em>We don&amp;apos;t know if the Chicxulub asteroid was God&amp;apos;s doing or not. The &amp;apos;bad luck&amp;apos; quote is in the title of David Raup&amp;apos;s highly regarded book. What seems to be true is that with each giant extinction, evolution advanced to more complex forms. If God is at work the process is working. Humans are here. Not at all unpredictable.</em>-You obviously share Raup&amp;apos;s view that most extinctions are bad luck, since you have stated it yourself. Bad luck and good luck are synonymous with chance. This means your God either couldn&amp;apos;t or didn&amp;apos;t want to control the environment, except for the occasional dabble. And if he couldn&amp;apos;t or didn&amp;apos;t control the environment, &amp;#147;most&amp;#148; of the consequences would also have been unpredictable (part of the great entertainment, perhaps). As for humans, leaving aside the question of who or what would have been capable of making predictions, I thought your whole &amp;#147;difference&amp;#148; campaign was based on your belief that they were NOT predictable, and it needed some really special dabbling from your God to produce them.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22678</link>
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<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2016 10:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>David&amp;apos;s comment: <em>This study shows the balance of nature is so important and current environment is part of that balance. Most extinctions are bad luck, described in previous entries.</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: Balance of nature simply means relations between living organisms and their environment. If the environment goes bust, the organisms go bust. And if extinctions are bad luck, it makes nonsense of the whole concept of divine planning and preprogramming. Your God carefully creates all these wonderful creatures, and then a bit of bad luck kills 99% of them! The whole process reeks of chance, and the only theistic explanation I can see is that this is how your God wanted it. In other words, he created all the conditions that would lead to an unpredictable ebb and flow of comings and goings (though he could do the occasional dabble if he felt like it). If you disagree, please give me an alternative theistic explanation for what you call &amp;#147;bad luck&amp;#148;.-We don&amp;apos;t know if the Chicxulub asteroid was God&amp;apos;s doing or not. The &amp;apos;bad luck&amp;apos; quote is in the title of David Raup&amp;apos;s highly regarded book. What seems to be true is that with each giant extinction, evolution advanced to more complex forms. If God is at work the process is working. Humans are here. Not at all unpredictable.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22676</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22676</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2016 23:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David&amp;apos;s comment: <em>This study shows the balance of nature is so important and current environment is part of that balance. Most extinctions are bad luck, described in previous entries.</em> - Balance of nature simply means relations between living organisms and their environment. If the environment goes bust, the organisms go bust. And if extinctions are bad luck, it makes nonsense of the whole concept of divine planning and preprogramming. Your God carefully creates all these wonderful creatures, and then a bit of bad luck kills 99% of them! The whole process reeks of chance, and the only theistic explanation I can see is that this is how your God wanted it. In other words, he created all the conditions that would lead to an unpredictable ebb and flow of comings and goings (though he could do the occasional dabble if he felt like it). If you disagree, please give me an alternative theistic explanation for what you call &amp;#147;bad luck&amp;#148;.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22674</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22674</guid>
<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2016 20:08:05 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions:  Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cause of the Permian-Triassic extinction event about 252 million years ago was due to extreme heat on the Earth which damaged nutrition supply in the oceans. This came from massive eruptions in Siberia:-https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/08/160824111100.htm-&amp;quot;After an extreme global warming 252 million years ago, a severe mass extinction of life took place on Earth. A new study in the Arctic has been seeking clues as to what limited return of life to world&amp;#180;s oceans after this event.-&amp;quot;96 percent of marine species, and 70 percent of terrestrial life died off in the Permian-Triassic extinction event, as geologists know it. It is also known as The Great Dying Event for obvious reasons.-&amp;quot;&amp;apos;The mass extinction was likely triggered by a explosive event of volcanic eruptions in what is now Siberia. These eruptions lasted for a million years and emitted enormous amounts of volatiles, such as carbon dioxide and methane, which made our planet unbearably hot.&amp;quot; says Jochen Knies-***-&amp;quot;Our oceans are not a single body of water. They are comprised of layers and boundaries based on temperature (thermocline) and nutrients (nutricline) among others.-&amp;quot;&amp;apos;The high temperatures caused deepening of the thermocline and nutricline in the ocean so that upwelling of nutrients from the bottom to the surface of ocean ceased. With that the marine algae productivity was stalled,&amp;quot; according to Knies.-&amp;quot;And without algae, which are the base of the food chain, the life in the ocean did not thrive.-&amp;quot;Once oceans finally started cooling 6-7 million years after the extinction, nutrient rich waters returned.-&amp;quot;&amp;apos;The boundaries that kept the nutrients from reaching the surface were weakened and the ocean waters were mixed. This caused the upwelling of nutrients, resuscitating the oceans, and leading to an explosion of life. The ecosystem voids created by the worst mass extinction in Earth history were finally filled.&amp;quot; states Jochen Knies.&amp;quot;-&amp;quot;In many ways the Permian-Triassic mass extinction reset the evolution of life, and paved the way for evolution of dinosaurs. They, in turn, died off in another mass extinction 66 million years ago.&amp;quot; -Comment: This study shows the balance of nature is so important and current environment is part of that balance. Most extinctions are bad luck, described in previous entries.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=22669</link>
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<pubDate>Wed, 24 Aug 2016 17:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions: Bad Genes or Bad Luck? Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DAVID: <em>The culprit? Catastrophic volcanic eruptions that spewed enough lava to cover Australia led to the die-off at the end of the Permian era, the researchers found.&amp;quot;</em> -dhw: <em>Preprogrammed by God, who had preprogrammed 10% of marine species and 25% of land dwellers to survive so that they could eventually create the innovations necessary to produce humans? Or a random catastrophe which some organisms were lucky enough to survive so that they were able to continue the higgledy-piggledy process of evolution?</em>-DAVID: <em>Random catastrophe. The survivors had survival mechanisms responses which had been honed to a fine point through previous catastrophes, all guided by God. Theistic evolution solves all problems.</em>-No more than faith in chance or faith in billions of individual intelligences. If you shut your eyes tightly enough, you won&amp;apos;t see any of the problems.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=19592</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=19592</guid>
<pubDate>Sun, 30 Aug 2015 20:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions: Bad Genes or Bad Luck? Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;quot;The culprit? Catastrophic volcanic eruptions that spewed enough lava to cover Australia led to the die-off at the end of the Permian era, the researchers found.&amp;quot; [/i]&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; dhw: Preprogrammed by God, who had preprogrammed 10% of marine species and 25% of land dwellers to survive so that they could eventually create the innovations necessary to produce humans? Or a random catastrophe which some organisms were lucky enough to survive so that they were able to continue the higgledy-piggledy process of evolution?-Random catastrophe. The survivors had survival mechanisms responses which had been honed to a fine point through previous catastrophes, all guided by God. Theistic evolution solves all problems.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=19584</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=19584</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2015 13:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions: Bad Genes or Bad Luck? Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DAVID: <em>For the extinction about 250 million years ago, volcanoes:</em>   -http://www.livescience.com/52017-catastrophic-volcanoes-caused-biggest-tinction.html?cmpid=NL_LS_weekly_2015-08-28&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&amp;quot;<em>Geologists hauling hundreds of pounds of 250-million-year-old rocks from Siberia, through Russian and American customs, say luck was on their side. Not only did they successfully transport the huge haul, but they also may have confirmed the cause of Earth&amp;apos;s worst mass extinction.&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&amp;quot;The culprit? Catastrophic volcanic eruptions that spewed enough lava to cover Australia led to the die-off at the end of the Permian era, the researchers found. That die-off occurred about 250 million years ago and was the greatest mass extinction in Earth&amp;apos;s history; 90 percent of marine species and 75 percent of land dwellers were wiped off the face of the planet over the course of about 60,000 years.&amp;quot;</em>-Preprogrammed by God, who had preprogrammed 10% of marine species and 25% of land dwellers to survive so that they could eventually create the innovations necessary to produce humans? Or a random catastrophe which some organisms were lucky enough to survive so that they were able to continue the higgledy-piggledy process of evolution?</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=19580</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=19580</guid>
<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2015 08:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions: Bad Genes or Bad Luck? Massive eruptions (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the extinction about 250 million years ago, volcanoes:-http://www.livescience.com/52017-catastrophic-volcanoes-caused-biggest-tinction.html?cmpid=NL_LS_weekly_2015-08-28-&amp;quot;Geologists hauling hundreds of pounds of 250-million-year-old rocks from Siberia, through Russian and American customs, say luck was on their side. Not only did they successfully transport the huge haul, but they also may have confirmed the cause of Earth&amp;apos;s worst mass extinction.-&amp;quot;The culprit? Catastrophic volcanic eruptions that spewed enough lava to cover Australia led to the die-off at the end of the Permian era, the researchers found. That die-off occurred about 250 million years ago and was the greatest mass extinction in Earth&amp;apos;s history; 90 percent of marine species and 75 percent of land dwellers were wiped off the face of the planet over the course of about 60,000 years.-&amp;quot;Ancient volcanic rocks now provide the best evidence yet that catastrophic volcanic activity triggered the extinction, researchers say.-****-&amp;quot;Scientists knew that a key factor behind this disaster may have been one of the biggest continental volcanic eruptions on record. It occurred in what is now Siberia, currently called the Siberian Traps, and spewed out as much as 2.7 million square miles (7 million square kilometers) of lava. This magmatism, or movement of magma, may have injected massive amounts of global warming gases into the atmosphere, wreaking havoc on the environment. These eruptions also led to acid rain that may at times have made the ground as acidic as lemon juice.&amp;quot;</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=19576</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=19576</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2015 23:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions: Bad Genes or Bad Luck? A nod to D. Raup (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The Permian-Triassic extinction of 250 mya was the most severe. Up to 90% of all species lost (don&amp;apos;t tell the EPA). The theory has always been a volcanic period, especially in Siberia. Now it appears to be verified:</p>
<p><a href="http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/history-of-geology/2011/09/16/large-igneous-provinces-and-mass-extinctions/?WT_mc_id=SA_DD_20110916">http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/history-of-geology/2011/09/16/large-igneous-provinc...</a></p>
</blockquote><p>New pinointing of the extinction:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111117143955.htm">http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111117143955.htm</a></p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=8063</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=8063</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Extinctions: Bad Genes or Bad Luck? A nod to D. Raup (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Permian-Triassic extinction of 250 mya was the most severe. Up to 90% of all species lost (don&amp;apos;t tell the EPA). The theory has always been a volcanic period, especially in Siberia. Now it appears to be verified:-http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/history-of-geology/2011/09/16/large-igneous-provinces-and-mass-extinctions/?WT_mc_id=SA_DD_20110916</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=7274</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=7274</guid>
<pubDate>Fri, 16 Sep 2011 20:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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