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<title>AgnosticWeb.com - Rapid evolution or epigenetics?</title>
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<description>An Agnostic&#039;s Brief Guide to the Universe</description>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darwin&amp;apos;s finches can change year by year, but are still finches. Epigentics in action:-http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/05/science/in-darwins-footsteps.html?emc=edit_th_20140805&amp;nl=todaysheadlines&amp;nlid=60788861&amp;_r=0</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=16478</link>
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<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2014 13:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>We know that evolution can be rapid, when dangers confront a species. The NY Times has an article which discusses the 50 year change in an endangered fish in the Hudson river from PCB contamination. A  block of six bases was deleted from one gene to accomplish the feat. The mechanism for the gene change is not known.-&amp;#13;&amp;#10;James Shapiro is coming out with his book on his approach to evolution. Don&amp;apos;t expect Darwin!!-http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-View-Century-James-Shapiro/dp/0132780933/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1308156663&amp;sr=1-1</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6566</link>
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<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Except that we have no clear examples of a single celled organism, or group there of, communicating with each other and deciding to form together to become a multi-cellular organism... and on and on. Yes, this accounts for variety, no, it does not account for speciation.-Nothing proves speciation is a result of chance, in fact, we have no idea how it occurs.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6369</link>
<guid>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6369</guid>
<pubDate>Sun, 01 May 2011 01:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except that we have no clear examples of a single celled organism, or group there of, communicating with each other and deciding to form together to become a multi-cellular organism... and on and on. Yes, this accounts for variety, no, it does not account for speciation.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6367</link>
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<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 21:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>Balance_Maintained</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Secondly, it&amp;apos;s your preordained &amp;quot;<em>framework of driving evolution to create humans</em>&amp;quot; that I find unconvincing in the light of the higgledy-piggledy evolutionary bush of species which come and go. Adaptation to change does not indicate that bacteria are preordained to evolve into humans! On the contrary, their being &amp;quot;programmed&amp;quot; to remain as bacteria suggests to me that they are an end in themselves.-BUT, view it a different way: bacteria are very successful, as shown that  they have survived for 3.6 billion years or so. But somehow or other they became multicellular also, and that set of organisms became more and more complex. They invented sex which made the dispersal of various types of organisms even more complex and more varied as a wider range of DNA became more and more mixed together. From this process humans arrived. Some branches of organisms ran out of steam and stopped but stayed around in stasis. Others, less successful, diappeared completely. But humans did arrive, and that suggests directionality built into evolution. See Michael Denton&amp;apos;s book : Nature&amp;apos;s Destiny, 1998. No one has said that directionality has only one road to follow. As Yogi Berra once said, &amp;quot;if you come to a fork in the road, take it!&amp;quot;</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6366</link>
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<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 21:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I have absolutely no problem with the idea that the mechanisms of epigenetics enable organisms to protect themselves against environmental changes, but firstly these mechanisms, as far as we know, do not change organisms into different species ... they result in adaptations not innovations. Secondly, it&amp;apos;s your preordained &amp;quot;<em>framework of driving evolution to create humans</em>&amp;quot; that I find unconvincing in the light of the higgledy-piggledy evolutionary bush of species which come and go. Adaptation to change does not indicate that bacteria are preordained to evolve into humans! On the contrary, their being &amp;quot;programmed&amp;quot; to remain as bacteria suggests to me that they are an end in themselves.--If the are &amp;apos;programmed&amp;apos; to remain bacteria, then evolution between species, and in particular from vastly less complicated to vastly more complicated would not occur. What I find even more intriguing is the method of their communication, which directly ties one of the four basic forces directly to life. i.e. Electromagnetism.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6365</link>
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<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 17:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>Balance_Maintained</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DAVID: <em>In this article bacteria create a new chemical way to methylate DNA and become resistant to seen classes of antibiotics. This is epigenetics at its best. You misunderstand my &amp;apos;pre-ordained&amp;apos; theory of evolution. Part of the theory that evolution has built in directionality includes giving organisms the ability to protect themselves from sudden environmental changes within the framework of driving evolution to create humans. It is quite clear that epigenetic changes are a powerful evolutionary tool.</em>-http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-bacteria-evolved-unique-chemical-mechanism.html-Fascinating stuff, as is your later post on possible communications between bacteria, though it was much too technical for me and I&amp;apos;m grateful for your summary. I would regard it as supporting the suggestion that cells may have an intelligence of their own that is responsible for innovations.-I have absolutely no problem with the idea that the mechanisms of epigenetics enable organisms to protect themselves against environmental changes, but firstly these mechanisms, as far as we know, do not change organisms into different species ... they result in adaptations not innovations. Secondly, it&amp;apos;s your preordained &amp;quot;<em>framework of driving evolution to create humans</em>&amp;quot; that I find unconvincing in the light of the higgledy-piggledy evolutionary bush of species which come and go. Adaptation to change does not indicate that bacteria are preordained to evolve into humans! On the contrary, their being &amp;quot;programmed&amp;quot; to remain as bacteria suggests to me that they are an end in themselves.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6363</link>
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<pubDate>Sat, 30 Apr 2011 11:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; This will not, of course, lead to innovation, but my comparison here is with intelligent cooperation WITHIN organisms, which may lead to adaptations or innovations. I&amp;apos;m fully aware that such inventive, intelligent mechanisms are highly unlikely to come into existence by chance. My tentative suggestion is that in the course of evolution they do not follow a pre-ordained programme (David&amp;apos;s version) and they do not depend on random mutations (the Darwinian version), but themselves initiate and develop changes from within.-In this article bacteria create a new chemical way to methylate DNA and become resistant to seen classees of antibiotics. This is epigenetics at its best. You misunderstand my &amp;apos;pre-ordained&amp;apos; theory of evolution. Part of the theory that evolution has built in directionality includes giving organisms the ability to protect themselves from sudden environmental changes within the framework of driving evolution to create humans. It is quite clear that epigenetic changes are a powerful evolutionary tool.-http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-04-bacteria-evolved-unique-chemical-mechanism.html</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6358</link>
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<pubDate>Fri, 29 Apr 2011 13:30:02 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Insects can have rapid evolution, after invasion by Ricketsia ( a tiny form of bacteria):-http://www.the-scientist.com/news/display/58109/</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6298</link>
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<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2011 16:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DAVID: <em>A new botanical report suggests a kind of punctuated equilibrium in flowering plants:</em>&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110329134343.htm-In addition to the evidence for punctuated equilibrium, this seems to me once more to point to intelligent and inventive mechanisms within the organisms themselves ... my counter to David&amp;apos;s theory of pre-programming: -&amp;quot;<em>Just as a company creates new, better versions of a product to increase market share and pad its bottom line, an international team of researchers led by Brown University has found that plants tinker with their design and performance before flooding the environment with new, improved versions of themselves</em>.&amp;quot;-&amp;quot;<em>Smith believes some triggers for the speciation explosion could have been internal, such as building a better flower or learning how to grow faster and thus outcompete other plants. The winning edge could also have come from the arrival of pollinating insects or changes in climate. The team plans to investigate these questions</em>.&amp;quot;-It&amp;apos;s the reference to &amp;quot;<em>internal triggers</em>&amp;quot; that particularly intrigues me. I&amp;apos;d suggested an analogy with the intelligence of insect colonies, and by coincidence yesterday&amp;apos;s Guardian carried a tiny article:-&amp;quot;<em>Bees are taking emergency measures to protect their hives from pesticides, according to experts. The creatures are sealing up hive cells full of pollen to put them out of use and protect the rest from their contents. The pollen in the sealed-up cells has been found to contain much higher levels of pesticides and other potentially harmful chemicals than the pollen stored in neighbouring cells, which is used to feed young bees</em>.&amp;quot;-This will not, of course, lead to innovation, but my comparison here is with intelligent cooperation WITHIN organisms, which may lead to adaptations or innovations. I&amp;apos;m fully aware that such inventive, intelligent mechanisms are highly unlikely to come into existence by chance. My tentative suggestion is that in the course of evolution they do not follow a pre-ordained programme (David&amp;apos;s version) and they do not depend on random mutations (the Darwinian version), but themselves initiate and develop changes from within.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6283</link>
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<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2011 13:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A  new botanical report suggests a kind of punctuated equilibrium in flowering plants:  -http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110329134343.htm</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6270</link>
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<pubDate>Mon, 04 Apr 2011 21:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DAVID: <em>There is a marvelous old video starring Eldridge and Gould on punctuated equilibrium with an explanation of their version of the theory: stasis and then a burst of new branching, bush style over 50-100 thousand years, on blog Sandwalk, today.</em>-http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/-I find the argument for punctuated equilibrium very convincing, but in the context of innovations and the development of new species, evolutionists always talk of thousands of years as being a short period. Of course it is, by comparison with 2 billion years or 3.7 billion years of life (whichever is correct), but thousands of years cover hundreds of generations, and I find something odd about this. Perhaps you or someone else can clarify the thinking for me by commenting on what follows:-Epigenetics explains adaptation, and you gave us an example not long ago of a fish which over a period of just a few years adapted to a dramatic environmental change. That makes perfect sense to me. Without swift adaptation, the species would have died out. But the species remained the same. And so my first question is whether there is any evidence that adaptation can lead to NEW species as opposed to variations on existing species. In this context, it&amp;apos;s also worth noting that &amp;quot;bursts of new branching&amp;quot; are often associated with catastrophes like volcanic eruptions and meteorite collisions, but these are also dramatically sudden, and again survival would depend on swift adaptation. -Secondly, Darwinism presumes that innovations are caused by random mutations. A mutation has to take place within an existing creature, and although it may be passed on to subsequent generations, it will not survive unless it conveys some kind of advantage (= natural selection). Why, then, would it take thousands of years (hundreds of generations) for new species to develop? Darwin&amp;apos;s explanation of the absence of &amp;quot;intermediate links&amp;quot; was the imperfection of the geological record. Although it&amp;apos;s claimed that links have been found (e.g. the horse, archaeopteryx), they are few and far between and open to different interpretations. Besides, who knows which of today&amp;apos;s facts may turn into tomorrow&amp;apos;s fictions?  Is it not possible that the still &amp;quot;imperfect&amp;quot; geological record might indicate that there are no &amp;quot;intermediate links&amp;quot;, and that new species can form over a much shorter period ... perhaps, like the adapting fish, just a few generations, as innovations &amp;quot;bed in&amp;quot;? Is there evidence to disprove such a theory? In other words, I&amp;apos;m looking for a parallel between swift adaptation and swift innovation, on the grounds that in both cases the changes must begin with one generation and must function straight away in order to survive.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6231</link>
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<pubDate>Thu, 24 Mar 2011 12:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; I&amp;apos;m still confining myself to innovation, and for me testing against geochemical changes means adaptation. You move onto epigenetics again before returning to what I see as the crucial question: <strong>How do we suddenly have entirely new species?</strong> &amp;quot;<em>Darwin&amp;apos;s guess is not supported in the fossil record as Gould has shown.-There is a marvelous old video starring Eldridge and Gould on puntuated equilibrium with an explanation of their version of the theory: stasis and then a burst of new branching, bush style over 50-100 thousand years, on blog Sandwalk, today.-http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/</em></p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6212</link>
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<pubDate>Sat, 19 Mar 2011 14:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; Yet you have made an amazing point: in histology I learned to identify organs by the microscopic slice. Liver cells don&amp;apos;t look like kidney. Lung is nothing like an adrenal gland. Lymph nodes are not anything like skin cells. And the brain can only be brain, the spinal cord has its own pattern. The body IS a community of organs, all functioning in great cooperation. A community of communities, like London and its suburbs. But everyone of these cells has the same DNA! And George tells us it all came from inorganic chemicals that fell together by chance.-How epigenetics help the different kinds of cells (about 200) stay the same and maintain their identity:-http://www.the-scientist.com/article/display/58007/</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6190</link>
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<pubDate>Mon, 14 Mar 2011 17:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid human evolution? delete DNA (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This seems to be the same research-http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110309/full/news.2011.148.html-But presented more popularly: &amp;quot;How the penis lost its spikes&amp;quot;.-None of this is contrary to the modern understanding of evolution,&amp;#13;&amp;#10;combining Darwin&amp;apos;s insights with Mendel and all the discoveries in &amp;#13;&amp;#10;molecular genetics over the last hundred years.</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6170</link>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>George Jelliss</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I have suggested that innovations may be produced by internal mechanisms that have some form of intelligence of their own, as opposed to being programmed by a UI to lead evolution to humanity, or being thrown up by random mutations.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; DAVID: <em>You are theorizing completely. I have presumed a directed pattern. -The following looks like directed pattern. Slime mold single-celled organisms, can group together, form a stalk with protein seen in multicellular organisms. One research person comments that genes can be adapted to new functions, and multicellularity may have been an easy jump! Looks like directed evolution, pre-planning, to me:-http://www.the-scientist.com/news/display/58047/</em></p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6149</link>
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<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 19:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid human evolution? delete DNA (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; Latest discoveries in evolution showing deletion of non-coding segments of DNA evolved humans away from other primates. Regulators of genes are removed for this to occur.&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; <a href="http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-dna-human.html-In">http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-dna-human.html-In</a> all the major science blogs I follow this is the story of the week. The article in Nature has been widely accepted as a carefully done, elegent study. The researchers were able to show that deletion of long segments of modifying DNA, that is, non-gene segments that controlled gene expression, possitively or negatively, enhanced human development from the common primate ancestor of six million years ago. Thus mutations may make changes, as originally proposed by Neo-Darwinism, but a deletion in the so-called &amp;apos;junk DNA&amp;apos; can also accomplish major changes, perhaps more rapidly than mutations can. Most mutations are deleterious, some neutral and a few are helpful. Using mutations alone reasonably might take much longer than six million years. Whatever mechanism caused the deletions to occur, they seemed to have speeded the evolutionary developments that were identified: genital and neural/ brain. Wow!  Lose DNA and get a much bigger brain!</p>
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<link>https://agnosticweb.com/index.php?id=6145</link>
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<pubDate>Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&amp;#13;&amp;#10;&gt; I  think we are close enough to each other to agree that DNA seems to have a mechanism for increasing complexity, however it got there.-Latest discoveries in evolution showing deletion of non-coding segments of DNA evolved humans away from other primates. Regulators of genes are removed for this to occur.-http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-dna-human.html</p>
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<pubDate>Wed, 09 Mar 2011 22:45:05 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I admit that my suggestion is pure speculation, but so is yours. (Of course, I think mine fits in far better with the higgledy-piggledy, hello-goodbye, where&amp;apos;s-this-leading evolutionary bush, not to mention the UI&amp;apos;s apparent absence of interest in what you believe to be the main object of his attentions. But hey, I&amp;apos;ll still grant your speculation equality with mine!)-I  think we are close enough to each other to agree that DNA seems to have a mechanism for increasing complexity, however it got there. Gould&amp;apos;s opinion that evolution could only work in one direction because it started with such simple bacteria makes no sense. Bacteria started it and are still here. With that kind of success, the biggest biomass on Earth, why bother with complexity?</p>
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<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 16:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>David Turell</dc:creator>
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<title>Rapid evolution or epigenetics? (reply)</title>
<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have suggested that innovations may be produced by internal mechanisms that have some form of intelligence of their own, as opposed to being programmed by a UI to lead evolution to humanity, or being thrown up by random mutations.-DAVID: <em>You are theorizing completely. I have presumed a directed pattern. Then I look and see the adaptation abilities with directed allow for any sudden environmental or predatory dangers. A wise director made this kind of direct plan. Wa la! bush. Your bush comes from a different source and mechanism, and the bushes will be similar in overall appearance and different in internal pattern. We are all even!</em>-I am indeed theorizing, and your presuming carries no more authority than my theorizing. My focus is on innovation, not adaptation, but it makes no difference here, as I&amp;apos;m NOT excluding your &amp;quot;<em>wise director</em>&amp;quot;. We&amp;apos;re talking about the SAME bush, but your mechanism is pre-programmed and mine has a degree of autonomy ... see below.&amp;#13;&amp;#10; &amp;#13;&amp;#10;DAVID: <em>My poodle is very intelligent. He is conscious and aware of what he needs to do. [...] But he is not &amp;apos;aware that he is aware&amp;apos;. Neither were the termites who took to build big mounds. [...] Those insects have no consciousness, but like the poodle are conscious and aware of proper things to do, by instinct.</em>-I&amp;apos;m happy to accept the oxymoron of unconscious consciousness. Using your terminology (termitology?), here is my version: somewhere within DNA lurks a mechanism ... perhaps deliberately created by a UI ... which, like your poodle and my termites, is &amp;quot;very intelligent&amp;quot;, has &amp;quot;no consciousness&amp;quot;, but is conscious and able to invent every so often a new, inheritable organ (just as the ancestor termite invented the first mound). Your version (correct me if I&amp;apos;m wrong): somewhere within DNA lurks a mechanism ... deliberately created by a UI ... which, unlike your poodle and my termites, has no intelligence or unconscious consciousness, but has been programmed to invent  every so often a new, inheritable organ. Same result: new organs, new species, the evolutionary bush.-DAVID:  <em>Insects are conscious, as I stated above. The anthropocentric interpretation of evolution is from the conclusion that DNA and its layers of control cannot have been developed by chance. There is no code we know of within human endeavor that is not created by intellect. This code in DNA is extremely efficient, transmits extraordinary amounts of information, and information cannot be created by chance. Try monkeys, a typewriter and a Shakespeare sonnet.</em>-I have frequently mounted precisely the same argument against chance, and my suggestion encompasses the possible deliberate creation by a UI. Your anthropocentric version, as opposed to my let&amp;apos;s-see-what-it-comes-up-with version, is therefore derived solely from your presumption of a pattern directed towards the goal of humanity. I admit that my suggestion is pure speculation, but so is yours. (Of course, I think mine fits in far better with the higgledy-piggledy, hello-goodbye, where&amp;apos;s-this-leading evolutionary bush, not to mention the UI&amp;apos;s apparent absence of interest in what you believe to be the main object of his attentions. But hey, I&amp;apos;ll still grant your speculation equality with mine!)</p>
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<pubDate>Sun, 06 Mar 2011 15:36:30 +0000</pubDate>
<category>Introduction</category><dc:creator>dhw</dc:creator>
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