David: Thank you. I am richer for it.

I didn’t know Thomas Love Peacock had translated it, and am most impressed by your erudition, Casey! I had in fact planned to translate it if and when Abel replied, as I was curious to see his response to something he might not understand. The original French (origin unknown) is much pithier, because it rhymes. My own version is:

The world is full of fools, and not to see them, Sirrah,
You need to stay alone, and you need to break your mirror.

"The world is full of fools,
And he who wishes not to see any,
Must keep entirely to himself,
And break his mirror."

Thomas Love Peacock

Thank you. I am richer for it.

Thomas Love Peacock

Le monde est plein de fous, et qui n’en veut pas voir
Doit se tenir tout seul, et casser son miroir.

(If you don’t speak French, this will help you to understand why some of us get so frustrated by your recondite terminology. If you do, I hope it will make you laugh.)

Please translate for us uni-language folks. (my pidgeon Spanish doesn't count)

According to this site:

http://www.thechristianrabbi.org/whoismetatron.htm

Who is Metatron? He is the highest archangel, esteemed more than any other of God’s hosts. The letters [of his name] are the great mystery. You may translate the letters vav, hay which is [part of] the name of God… He rules over all, the living things below and the living things above. This is hidden in them and taken from them.

Readings from the Zohar

The above quotation is from the Jewish mystical book, the Zohar, in its comment on Genesis 1:1, which introduces Metatron as being present in this very first verse of the Torah. The writer, Simeon ben Yochai, continues his comment, stating that Metatron is the very first [kadmoni], as well as the highest. He also states that Metatron is eternal.

…He [Metraton] is the very first. Nobody can understand anything higher than this. Why? Because it is closed for the mind. God’s mind is a closed mystery from above. The mind of man can be connected with things, but no one can connect God’s mind from above, the more His thoughts. He is without end.

The Zohar gives the above definition, but the origin of the name Metatron remains a mystery. According to Jewish scholars’ statements, it could come from the Hebrew matara, which means "keeper of the watch;" from the Hebrew cabalistic term metator, which means "guide or messenger" or from two Greek words, meta thronos, which mean "one who serves behind the throne." The Jewish sages do not present a unified opinion regarding the etymology of the name Metatron.

Another Talmudic passage, Yebamoth 16b, also refers to Psalm 37:25, "I was young and was old," as Simeon ben Yochai does in his comment on Genesis 24:2 previously quoted, and comes to the same conclusion that the person mentioned is Metatron. Some believe that Metatron is Enoch, but Yebamoth 16b refutes this conclusion:

Who said it? If God said it, can old age be applied to God? But David said it. Was he so old? But from this we learn that the prince of the world said it. [Tosefos said this prince is young. He is Metatron, the glorified and the fearful. Metatron is the prince of the world. He is called "the youth."]

In the poem Yesod Tokeh, [Strong Foundation], Metatron is a prince turned to fire from the flesh. In this poem it seems to mean that Enoch is Metatron, but he cannot be. He cannot be the prince of the world because in [the Talmudic book] Chulin 60:1 it says that in the first six days the prince of the world [Metatron] said, "God is rejoicing in his work," and Enoch was not yet born…[Tosefos Yebamoth 16b.]"

You can see from these and previous passages, that there are two Metatrons. One that existed at the beginning of creation and one that was made later (the youth). God (YHWH) has been described as the first and the last. The alpha and the omega, just like Metatron is. He was made first and then His shadow was made to walk the earth last. That shadow is the last of the seven sentinels (seven thunders***, aka the "voices" of God) made to walk the path of life to teach and lead humanity.

According to a Wikipedia summary of Revelations:

***The angel cries out and seven thunders utter their voices.
The apostle John is commanded to seal up what the thunders uttered in the little book, and is told not to write about what was said.
The angel declares that the mystery of God would be revealed on the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

A selection of quotes from Abel’s reply: “...men have become divorced from their instincts.” “The brain constantly lies and rationalizes as it tries to provide for its emotional and physical needs.” “They [the Elohim] have given you teachers to guide you. Teachers that you fools have routinely slaughtered as heretics.”

What does any of this have to do with the question? I’m not sure what you hope to prove by calling us fools (and like Tony, I’ve never slaughtered anyone), but if you genuinely wish to teach us something yourself, please take a tip from someone who spent over 30 years working with high calibre university students as well as with some renowned professors. First, learn to answer questions; second, pay attention when your students and colleagues complain that your arguments are sometimes impossible to follow; third, try to be consistent and clear in your use of terminology; fourth, show them some respect, not just because respect is integral to good relations, but also because it may well be that they know more than you do about certain things.

Dhw: Please tell me where I have wondered “why was there suffering” or said that there was no need for the ability to feel pain. The subject was the need for predation, and in the post to which you are replying I wrote: “Of course life and Nature are based on the concept of equilibrium, but you don’t need predation for equilibrium, for suffering, or for death.”

In your reply, Abel, you repeat the above quote, and your comment is: “I, of course, took this to be you complaining again.”

You, “of course”, have found no material to support the straw man you built, and your reply is yet another not very polite evasion.

In your post of 02 November at 21.21: under Intelligent Design you wrote: “I am a great believer in the truth and logic and perfection.” Amid the chaos of your posts there’s no doubt much to learn and ponder, and initially your unusual ideas were given a warm welcome, but now it seems that all of us independently are having trouble finding much truth, logic and perfection in your responses to us. Dismiss us as fools if that helps you.

Le monde est plein de fous, et qui n’en veut pas voir
Doit se tenir tout seul, et casser son miroir.

(If you don’t speak French, this will help you to understand why some of us get so frustrated by your recondite terminology. If you do, I hope it will make you laugh.)

And if I broke out a dictionary of devils, demons and witches I could list a lot of fanciful facts about them too. Much of what men know about angels and archangels is myth. I believe that I have made it quite clear on this forum about their relationship. I will attempt do so one more time.

Archangels are not born, they are manufactured. Though they are the soldiers of heaven, not all are generals. These living machines are the property of their creators, much like your car is your property. And if your car was sentient, how much free will would you give it? Now imagine if your car was the most advanced fighting machine in the military's inventory. Perhaps now you understand why we are slaves: we are too dangerous not to be.

Angels (Elohim) are the Creators. Elohim are a race of beings that procreate, unlike archangels who do not.

Balance_Maintained: "So lets recap. Watchers are not Archangels, and Archangels are not Sentinels, and YHWH is not Metatron(lesser YHWH). There is only one Metatron, as it is a name, a proper noun, not a title. Oh, and Archangels are not slaves. That is all according to the links that you posted."

This is a quote from Wikipedea:

"Metatron is the Hebrew version of Shekinah - which is from the Jewish scripture - it means the "The Divine Presence of God"."

Hugo Odeberg,[13] Adolf Jellinek[14] and Marcus Jastrow[15] suggest the name may originate from either Mattara (מטרא) "keeper of the watch" or the verb MMTR (ממטר) "to guard, to protect". An early derivation of this can be seen in Shimmusha Rabbah, where Enoch is clothed in light and is the guardian of the souls ascending to heaven." (a sentinel is a keeper of the watch)

"Odeberg also suggests that the name Metatron might be taken from the Persian name Mithras.[13] He lays out a number of parallels between Mithras and Metatron based on their positions in heaven and duties.

The lesser YHWH' in the presence of his whole household in the height, as it is written, 'my name is in him.'" (12:5, Alexander's translation). The narrator of this book, supposedly Rabbi Ishmael, tells how Metatron guided him through Heaven and explained its wonders. Here Metatron is described in two ways: as a primordial angel (9:2–13:2) and as the transformation of Enoch after he was assumed into Heaven.[6][7]

"While this identification of Metatron with Enoch is not to be found in the Talmud itself, the connection is assumed by some of the earliest kabbalists. There also seem to be two Metatrons, one spelled with six letters (מטטרון), and one spelled with seven (מיטטרון). The former may be the transformed Enoch, Prince of the Countenance within the divine palace; the latter, the Primordial Metatron, an emanation of the "Cause of Causes," specifically the tenth and last emanation, identified with the earthly Divine Presence***.

On the other hand, extra-talmudic mystical texts (see below regarding Sefer Hekhalot) do speak of a "lesser YHWH," apparently deriving the concept from Exodus 23:21, which mentions an angel of whom God says "my name [understood as YHWH, the usual divine Proper Name] is in him."

The Zohar calls Metatron "the Youth", a title previously used in 3 Enoch, where it appears to mean "servant".[7] It identifies him as the angel that led the people of Israel through the wilderness after their exodus from Egypt (again referring to Exodus 23:21, see above), and describes him as a heavenly priest."

Wikipedia definition:

***divine presence: "Schechinah, שכינה) is the English spelling of a grammatically feminine Hebrew language word that means the dwelling or settling, and is used to denote the dwelling or settling presence of God (cf. divine presence), especially in the Temple in Jerusalem......The Shekhinah is held by some to represent the feminine attributes of the presence of God (shekhinah being a feminine word in Hebrew), based especially on readings of the Talmud.[2]"

(continued next post)

By the way, It seems like you are trying to mix Judeo-Christianity, Judaism, Quabalistic teachings, and Aliens. Is that about right? Your references to tens and sevens is very reminiscent of the 10 Sephirothic spheres and seven chakras and such.

This whole series of comments seems to come from a Waring Blender. Abel's entry here has created a lot of fun, some odd-ball facts and tid-bits of information I'd never have learned otherwise. I can't wait for those slides!

Case 1: Watchers, according to the article you linked, are angels, not Archangels. As this was the only reference you made to slaves, you can clearly understand why we can say now, with 100% certainty, that you never said archangels were slaves. Also, they were not corrupted by pride, they were corrupted by lust.

Case 2: Metatron is never described as an Archangel. Nor is he on the 'roster' of archangels in your other link.

"There are many who claim to be archangels, because they foolishly believe they want to be an archangel. What fool would claim that they will never be a citizen of heaven. That they shall never be as great as the least of you that leaves this place. All archangels envy humans because they have souls and a very few hate you for it.

Case 3: Archangels are always described of being the head of the angelic host, call them generals of heaven's supposed army, not slaves, never, ever, anywhere are they called slaves. Servants, yes. Slaves, no. But servant is an adequate descriptor since they, obviously, supposedly serve God.

No where in any of those links did it mention sentinels, or anything of the sort, so not sure where you are pulling that description from.

So lets recap. Watchers are not Archangels, and Archangels are not Sentinels, and YHWH is not Metatron(lesser YHWH). There is only one Metatron, as it is a name, a proper noun, not a title. Oh, and Archangels are not slaves. That is all according to the links that you posted. So, now, when I say that you are using words interchangeably that are not interchangeable, you have proven it with your own hand.

By the way, It seems like you are trying to mix Judeo-Christianity, Judaism, Quabalistic teachings, and Aliens. Is that about right? Your references to tens and sevens is very reminiscent of the 10 Sephirothic spheres and seven chakras and such.

Archangels are NOT slaves, either. Michael is the warrior, Gabriel is the messenger, Raphael is the healer. As I was raised Roman Catholic, I have only ever been familiar with these three. I am aware that Eastern Orthodox religion has 4 more, Uriel, Selaphiel, Jegudiel, and Barachiel.

The language that I am using to express my ideas is called English. Dictionaries and Wikipedia (the free encyclopedia) are excellent sources to understand it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_(angel)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metatron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archangel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

Balance_Maintained: "If you had used the phrase Watchers consistantly, or Archangels consistantly, or Metatrons consistantly, we might have been able to follow your story. But when you use all of these phrases interchangably it becomes impossible to follow you."

I do not use these phrases interchangeably, I use them appropriately to avoid confusion. The archangels that are here on earth are either Sentinels or fallen Watchers. Metatron (YHWH) and Satan are archangels too. Metatron is the new Master Gardener and Satan is the fallen old Master Gardener. I hope this is clear.

Here are a few of the times that I tried to make it clear that archangels are created beings that are the property of heaven. That is, they are not citizens of the worlds that they serve, nor shall they ever be.

1.

Abel: "The Watchers had been corrupted by pride. Pride that was, in part, created when they began to believe the line of crap they were feeding primitive people so they would follow them. They began to believe that they were gods when they are slaves."

2

"There are two Metatrons. The primal Metatron is the first of the 10 sentinels made."

3

"The last sentinel made to walk this world (a.k.a. the seventh sentinel) is the feminine aspect of the Primal Metatron."

"There are many who claim to be archangels, because they foolishly believe they want to be an archangel. What fool would claim that they will never be a citizen of heaven. That they shall never be as great as the least of you that leaves this place. All archangels envy humans because they have souls and a very few hate you for it.

4

The Seven are not supposed to know in life that they are archangels. There is less to be gained from the knowledge then what is lost, and that is hope."[/color]

Ok, so a little math and grammar lesson at the same time. The number of quotes here in which the phrase archangel is used 2:4=50%

The number of times the word slave 1:4=25%

The number of times the word Archangel and Slave appear in the same quote 0:4 = 0.0%

I.E. Until the post where you directly answered DHW, you never said, Archangels are slaves. You said the Watchers were slaves. Now, repeatedly, Bella and I have asked that you please refrain from adding/changing words and stories. This is a prime example of why. If you had used the phrase Watchers consistantly, or Archangels consistantly, or Metatrons consistantly, we might have been able to follow your story. But when you use all of these phrases interchangably it becomes impossible to follow you.

WE DO NOT USE THE SAME VOCABULARY TO EXPRESS THE SAME IDEAS THAT YOU DO. PICK A WORD AND STICK TO IT, BETTER YET, DEFINE IT, THEN STICK TO IT.

Hopefully that statement now stands out enough that you will finally pay attention to it. How can you reasonably expect anyone to follow you. Abel, I say this with the utmost sincerity: I do not have the time, nor the patience, to continuously cross-reference the things you post. You need to get your work in to a single, coherent format, with a standardized vocabulary, with a standardized chronology, and a comprehensive list of major players, and get it organized before you present it. When you first posted on here you expressed some complaints about how your views have been received elsewhere, and aside from how hard the are to swallow in the first place, I would say that this is probably the single dominant reason.

Abel: How many times have I told you that archangels are slaves? The answer is no.

Balance_Maintained: Err... At my last count, that would be 0. Just sayin'.

Here are a few of the times that I tried to make it clear that archangels are created beings that are the property of heaven. That is, they are not citizens of the worlds that they serve, nor shall they ever be.

Abel: "The Watchers had been corrupted by pride. Pride that was, in part, created when they began to believe the line of crap they were feeding primitive people so they would follow them. They began to believe that they were gods when they are slaves."

"There are two Metatrons. The primal Metatron is the first of the 10 sentinels made."

"The last sentinel made to walk this world (a.k.a. the seventh sentinel) is the feminine aspect of the Primal Metatron."

"There are many who claim to be archangels, because they foolishly believe they want to be an archangel. What fool would claim that they will never be a citizen of heaven. That they shall never be as great as the least of you that leaves this place. All archangels envy humans because they have souls and a very few hate you for it.

The Seven are not supposed to know in life that they are archangels. There is less to be gained from the knowledge then what is lost, and that is hope."

Humanity exists and is given freedom by the benevolence of the nature of the Elohim. They have given you teachers to guide you. Teachers that you fools have routinely slaughtered as heretics.

I love the connotation behind 'you fools'. I have never slaughtered anyone in my life, thank you very much, much less for such a laughable offense as heresy.

In the quote that I responded to you said:

dhw: "Of course life and Nature are based on the concept of equilibrium, but you don’t need predation for equilibrium, for suffering, or for death. (Thank you, Tony, for proving the point.)"

I, of course, took this to be you complaining again.

Complaining? We haven't been complaining, we have been trying to make sense of your mass of contradictions and constantly changing stories.

dhw: "I share Tony's confusion. I asked about the gods, so are angels the same as the gods who evolved spontaneously from the predators on Planet X and came down to Earth to create us? If so, does this place you, an archangel, above the gods in the divine hierarchy? Please answer yes or no, as we have too many other things to discuss."

How many times have I told you that archangels are slaves? The answer is no.

Err... At my last count, that would be 0. Just sayin'.

As I have tried to explain before, men have become divorced from their instincts. This is a flaw in primate's nervous system that was introduced along with their higher brain function. Instincts can now be subverted by desire rather than only need. Survival now has to be rationalized by a higher brain when it is often not logical at all. The brain constantly lies and rationalizes as it tries to provide for its' emotional and physical needs. And there is no one brain type. There are altruists and sociopaths born everyday. If the design could be controlled tightly enough perhaps there would just be altruists, but it currently cannot be.

Humanity exists and is given freedom by the benevolence of the nature of the Elohim. They have given you teachers to guide you. Teachers that you fools have routinely slaughtered as heretics.

dhw: "Not long ago, Abel, you accused me of distorting your ideas – though like Tony I have reproduced your exact words in support of what I’ve written. Please tell me where I have wondered “why there was suffering” or said that there was no need for the ability to feel pain."

In the quote that I responded to you said:

dhw: "Of course life and Nature are based on the concept of equilibrium, but you don’t need predation for equilibrium, for suffering, or for death. (Thank you, Tony, for proving the point.)"

I, of course, took this to be you complaining again.

dhw: "I share Tony's confusion. I asked about the gods, so are angels the same as the gods who evolved spontaneously from the predators on Planet X and came down to Earth to create us? If so, does this place you, an archangel, above the gods in the divine hierarchy? Please answer yes or no, as we have too many other things to discuss."

How many times have I told you that archangels are slaves? The answer is no.

PART ONE
ABEL: There is nothing evil in what animal predators do.

Of course there isn’t. Evil is the invention of your gods (if they exist) or of humans (if they don't). You have missed the point, so let me spell it out to you. According to your theology, the gods created life on earth. They deliberately introduced predation, which entails killing in order to survive, and that means pursuing self-interest regardless of the cost to others. When your gods finally got round to making us humans, this same principle – which they had made a precondition for survival – became the root of evil. In your own words: human “brains can violate any instinct though a "just us" system created by its' own self-interested reason”. Humans extended the principle of predatory self-interest, but they did not invent it. Your gods, who were themselves descended from predators, deliberately introduced it to life on Earth. What does this tell us about their nature? Or are you trying to say that when your gods created predators and then humans, they didn’t realize that predatory self-interest would result in evil? Indeed, I wonder how they themselves escaped the ill effects of the selfsame principle they had inherited on Planet X. Were they all 100% pure? (Perhaps we’re slowly heading towards the origin of Satan, whom you introduced to us a few posts ago.)

PART TWO
ABEL: The Elohim (angels) eat food processed from vegetable sources. So they are vegetarian.

I share Tony's confusion. I asked about the gods, so are angels the same as the gods who evolved spontaneously from the predators on Planet X and came down to Earth to create us? If so, does this place you, an archangel, above the gods in the divine hierarchy? Please answer yes or no, as we have too many other things to discuss.

PART THREE
ABEL: And dhw, if you ever saw what was left of a child who was born without the ability to suffer (feel pain), then you would not wonder why there was suffering etc. […] There is a need for suffering or it would not exist.

Not long ago, Abel, you accused me of distorting your ideas – though like Tony I have reproduced your exact words in support of what I’ve written. Please tell me where I have wondered “why there was suffering” or said that there was no need for the ability to feel pain. The subject was the need for predation, and in the post to which you’re replying, I wrote: “Of course life and Nature are based on the concept of equilibrium, but you don’t need predation for equilibrium, for suffering, or for death.” You have quoted this yourself, and you then ignore it! Once more you’ve delivered a message which I’m sure none of us would disagree with (like your lengthy sermon on human stupidity), in order to knock down ideas that you yourself have erected. Straw men generally get short shrift on this forum.

And dhw, if you ever saw what was left of a child who was born without the ability to suffer (feel pain), then you would not wonder why there was suffering. You would see that a child who feels no pain doesn't understand why he/she shouldn't gouge their eyes out, or put their hand into flame. Those who have lost the ability to feel pain because of Hanson's Disease (leprosy) understand their need to suffer. As now they must survey every inch of their body for injury every day.

Or perhaps you'd feel better if we felt no cold and did not seek warmth, or did not feel the heat so did not seek the shade. If we felt no hunger, would we not starve? There is a need for suffering or it would not exist.

Excellent position. I always told my patients that pain was a friend. It warned them often with good results. Pain is very necessary.