Human Destiny (Endings)

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Thursday, June 19, 2008, 18:27 (5783 days ago)

Mark, in the thread on How Agnostics Live quotes from Dostoyevsky's novel The Brothers Karamazov: "Imagine that it is you yourself who are erecting the edifice of human destiny with the aim of making men happy in the end, of giving them peace and contentment at last, ..." - Mark continues: "The story is most commonly used to knock down the all too easy Christian response to the question of suffering which argues that the good outweighs the evil. The tale is taken to illustrate most starkly the injustice of founding all the good of the world on evil. There is no doubt that the most powerful objection to the Christian idea of God is the question of evil and suffering." - There are three aspects here I would like to discuss. The first is the concept of "human destiny". Dostoevsky's character speaks as if this is something preordained and that its purpose is happiness, peace, and contentment. The desire for such things to be oredered is perhaps understandable given Dostoevsky's own troubled experiences in life. However, it would seem that our human destiny is probably either to become extinct or to give rise to some successor species, perhaps part machine. One has only to read a few science fiction books! - The second is the question of suffering. Surely it is part of the nature of life to be involved in a continual struggle to survive. Some people do indeed get more than their fair share of suffering. Many of the religions of the world are designed to ease the minds of people who are suffering, those at the bottom of the heap. Though I'm not sure whether this is mainly for their benefit (the opiate of the masses) or for the benefit of their masters (encouraging quietism and obedience rather than rebellion). - The third is the question of good and evil as abstract principles or forces about in the world. I think these are projections on the world of human wishes and desires, and not part of physical reality. Nature is neutral on such issues. Or possibly, since the universe does not appear to be very hospitable to life, one could argue that Nature is against us, and wouldn't be bothered one way or another if we, and all life, disappeared.

Human Destiny: Evolution and Spirituality

by George Jelliss ⌂ @, Crewe, Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 13:12 (5757 days ago) @ George Jelliss

Well, nobody has taken me up on this proposed discussion, but this essay that has come to my attention may stimulate some thoughts. It is by Denis Alexander of the Faraday Institute. He is a theistic evolutionist. - Quote: "Why should radical atheists get to hijack Darwinism as their own? Biologist DENIS ALEXANDER shows why modern Christians should celebrate evolution like many of their evangelical forebears did ... as the agency of God's creation." - http://www.thirdwaymagazine.com/334 - I would particularly draw attention to the "three models" A, B and C that he provides for the interpretation of the Genesis story in terms of anthropology. - Personally I don't care for the implications of his Model C which seems to imply that atheists are "spiritually dead"!

Human Destiny: Evolution and Spirituality

by dhw, Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 17:00 (5756 days ago) @ George Jelliss

George has drawn our attention to an essay by Denis Alexander, a theistic evolutionist, pleading for Christians to accept evolution as the agency of God's creation. - Bearing in mind George's atheism, I'm impressed by his broad-mindedness and by the restraint of his response! Some salient points: - Alexander: the task of the theory is "to explain the origins of biological diversity on this planet". Exactly. It never seeks to explain life itself. Dawkins and Co. distort the scope of the theory. - Alexander: "You can baptise evolution into virtually any world-view you like, and it will fit comfortably within most." I agree, and it amazes me that theists can show such degrees of hostility towards a theory that works just as well for theism as it does for atheism. (Darwin saw no reason why the theory should "shock the religious feelings of anyone".) - Alexander: "If there is a personal God with intentions and purposes for his creation, then we expect order, directionality and the emergence of personhood. This is precisely what evolution delivers." But in the very next paragraph, he asks: "Why does God use such a long process, involving so much animal pain and death, to fulfil his purposes?" Sadly, he doesn't answer ... unless he provides an answer in his book. Additional problems for me are: a) why a "personal" God? b) Why assume that intentions and purposes are Christian (maybe God created us simply for his own entertainment)? c) Why order, directionality etc., when it could just have been a matter of starting the whole thing off and then seeing what happened? d) It is a moot point whether evolution does deliver order and directionality. - George is interested in the three Genesis models. Alexander favours C, the most literal version. In B he says "children today seem readily to believe in God almost as soon as they can speak", which I find extraordinary; I'd have thought children of that tender age would simply believe what their parents told them. Model A (a sort of parable) gets my vote. - Just as interesting as the essay are the many comments that follow. Andrew Holloway (Tuesday 1 July) points out that evolution is far from proven (i.e. as an explanation for the origin of species). He cites government-funded experiments on fruit flies to induce mutations, the results of which were 1) normal fruit flies, 2) handicapped fruit flies, and 3) dead fruit flies. Personally, I have no doubt that evolution occurs, in the sense that natural selection preserves advantages, but how life and heredity originated, and how unconscious organisms gained the ability to form themselves into new organs and new species is another matter altogether. - Many of the correspondents are vehement in defence of "God's word". A typical example is Bruce Budd (Tuesday 8 July): "Please, friends, the Word of God is either right or it's wrong." But a few lines later: "Man's interpretations of the Bible are man's words, not God's, and should be treated as such." Since the Bible was written by man and translated by man, and like all language is subject to interpretation by man and can only take on a meaning through man's interpretation, how on earth does he know what is God's Word? - But there is a lovely contribution from Harvey Edser (Monday 14 July) which really took my eye: "We may not like the implications of evolution being God's agency in creation ... that it involves death, suffering, struggle and waste. But our dislike is not disproof. I don't like the divinely-ordered slaughter of women and children in the Old Testament, and I'm not keen on the concept of hell, but ultimately God doesn't have to act how I would like him to. Of course, he's also free to create the universe in 6 days and then make it look like it took billions of years." - Worth logging on just for that.

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