LUCA latest: Shapiro redux (Introduction)

by David Turell , Saturday, July 22, 2023, 18:30 (280 days ago) @ dhw

DAVID: All we see are epigenetic editing, nothing close to speciation. Nothing 'major' in current research.

dhw: It’s a theory! Nobody knows how speciation happens! But if we know that “minor” autonomous editing does occur, why should we discount the possibility that “major” autonomous editing could also have occurred when conditions required it?

"Major autonomous editing...when conditions required it" is what happened, but that 'why' does not tell us 'how' it happened.

dhw; Meanwhile, what evidence has been found to prove the theoretical existence of a divine, 3.8-billion-year old programme for every innovation, lifestyle, strategy, natural wonder in the history of evolution. What evidence is there for an unknown, sourceless mind named God theoretically intervening to specially design every innovation etc. in the history of evolution (99% of which are/were irrelevant to what you say was his one and only purpose)?

The evidence you recognize is complex design of living forms.

DAVID: The intense requirements for design of complex biochemical reactions requires a mind in action, one simple biochemical cells cannot create.

dhw: Biochemical cells are not simple, and their immense complexity is a potent argument for your designer God. Furthermore, you agree that their actions appear to be intelligent, but you simply refuse to contemplate the possibility that your God might actually have endowed them with intelligence. Instead you cling to the alternative theories I have summarized above, and you try to belittle Shapiro because he did not personally do all the research that underlies his theory.

DAVID: I seriously belittle your blown-up interpretation of Shapiro’s theory.

dhw: I have repeated the exact wording of his theory as quoted by you in your book The Atheist Delusion. Please stop pretending that I have “blown it up”.

DAVID: I faithfully presented Shapiro as an historical figure in the debate.

dhw: You faithfully quoted his exact summary of his theory, e.g. “evolutionary novelty arises from the production of new cell and multicellular structures as a result of cellular self-modification and cell fusions.” Stop pretending that I have “blown it up”.

What you have blown up is that cells have the intelligence to create irreducible complexity in likving forms.

DAVID: I introduced you to Shapiro whose work I ADMIRE. But it was limited to bacteria.

dhw: It was not limited to bacteria. Studying other people’s research is also “work”, and you have agreed that “Shapiro knew of all the other research”.

DAVID: The new facts Shapiro's research produced were all about bacteria, nothing more.

dhw: You have agreed that he would have researched work on other organisms before reaching his general conclusions. Stop pretending that his theory is only based on bacteria.

Not true. It is your invention. What I agreed to is Shapiro was fully aware of other studies and research.