Human evolution; early ancestor probable upright posture (Introduction)

by dhw, Saturday, September 28, 2019, 10:41 (1673 days ago) @ David Turell

dhw: Since you are now distinguishing between actual design (preprogramming and/or dabbling) and “epigenetic ability”, I can only assume that the latter means he gave autonomous intelligence to all organisms. If it was not autonomous, then it was still “guided”, i.e. preprogrammed or dabbled. Firstly, this autonomy can also apply to bacteria, and secondly this is the mechanism which I call cellular intelligence and which may also have directed evolution, though that remains an unproven hypothesis. Just trying to clarify. Any disagreement with this interpretation of your statement?

DAVID: epigenetic means nothing more than minor necessary adaptations. Otherwise OK.

We are making progress. You agree that your God (if he exists) gave organisms (cell communities) a degree of autonomous intelligence, but only to design minor adaptations. This autonomous intelligence can also be present in bacteria. The question then becomes where we draw the line between minor and major adaptations, and between major adaptations and innovations. The hypothesis I offer – just as unproven as your hypothesis of divine preprogramming/dabbling – is that the same mechanism is capable of designing all of them. Just clarifying again.

DAVID: The humans were not the only thing He wanted. he knew He needed the entire bush of life as support for the time evolution took. Humans were his final goal, and I firmly believe we are last.

In your theory, it wasn’t evolution that “took time” but your God who for some inexplicable reason DECIDED to wait 3.X billion years before starting to “evolve” (= specially design) the only thing he wanted to design, which was us. And he NEEDED (very different from “wanted”) the entire bush to COVER that time! Why do you keep ignoring your own precise account of the process: “He knew those designs were required interim goals to establish the necessary food supply to cover the time he knew he had decided to take.”

dhw: But secondly, even if it were true that his one and only goal was to produce H. sapiens, you refuse to consider any logical explanation of the delay (e.g. experimentation), and so you believe he “had to” abide by the procedure bolded above, because you happen to know that he is in total control and he cannot possibly have any characteristics (such as the desire to experiment) in common with the humans you say he specially created.

DAVID: He very well could think like us, but it is only a guess, as your suppositions about His thoughts are.

Of course it’s a guess, just like the whole of your theory, bolded above, and what’s more yours is a guess which you yourself find inexplicable: “Haven’t you realized by now, I have no idea why God chose to evolve humans over time?” More importantly, since you now recognize that your God may very well think like us, please stop dismissing logical explanations purely on the grounds that you believe your God does NOT think like us.

dhw: […] I still don’t know why you think an always-in-control God found it necessary to specially design H. sapiens by first designing umpteen different hominids and homos, with a useless 21-million- year-old vertebra here and a Neanderthal gene there.

DAVID: What a wild assumption. The researchers know the genes exist, but how much they affect us is still under current investigation, not that they are probably valueless as you imply.

dhw: It was you who wrote that the “tiny inconsequential lumbar change 21 million years ago […] didn’t change the lifestyle of that monkey and wasn’t necessary at that time”, which I take to mean valueless.

DAVID: Not valueless, but a tiny step toward the anticipated future.

You introduced the word “valueless”. I used the word "useless", which I think sums up inconsequential, not necessary, and not changing anything. And I still don’t understand why a God, who according to you can produce whole organs and organisms with a single dabble, should choose to dabble one single, useless vertebra to “anticipate” what he is going to design in the future.

dhw: And it was you who wrote: Neanderthal genes affect our skin and immunity and are beneficial to us. A wise God would let various homo types to contribute to the final sapiens product by developing different appropriate responses to a variety of environmental issues."

DAVID: They assume there are such benefits as they noted. You are struggling to argue.

They make no such assumption: “But researchers cannot yet say how these archaic sequences affect people today, much less the humans who acquired them some 50,000–55,000 years ago." Besides, why couldn't a totally-in-control God enable the only desired species to develop different responses etc.? Oh, but I mustn't ask such questions, because although God might very well think like humans, you happen to know that he doesn't.