More Denton: Reply to Tony (Introduction)

by dhw, Saturday, July 25, 2015, 15:18 (3200 days ago) @ Balance_Maintained

DHW: I don't have a problem with the argument that Neanderthals, Denisovans, the Dimanisi hominids and homo sapiens etc, were/are all humans. How does that prove they did not descend from earlier forms of life? 
TONY: Dismantle the problem one stage at a time. If it is unlikely, and it is, that there was any speciation in the hominid line, how much more unlikely is it that there was speciation between some mythical (never observed, even in fossils) common ancestor into humans and apes.-As I said earlier, there is a problem with the term “species” - we use it for the human species (all one) and for species of human (Neanderthal, Denisovan, homo sapiens etc.). It hasn't been proved that the latter are not different, even if they are all human. But that does not affect the argument for common descent, as discussed below. Of course you are right that no one has observed any of the transitions that (may) have taken place millions of years ago. Nor has anyone observed your God separately creating the first dogs, cats, apes and humans. And on that subject, doesn't your own explanation of speciation entail evolution? Did God separately create the gorilla, orang-utan, chimpanzee, gibbon etc., or do they have a common ancestor?
 
I am taking the next exchange out of sequence, as it makes for a clearer line of argument herehw: (Since you mention that speciation has never been observed, perhaps I should add that no-one has ever observed an organism that did not spring from another organism.) 
TONY: We HAVE observed organisms that "did not spring from another organism". It's called the Cambrian explosion. No precursors. Hell, that is the basis for your entire 'inventive mechanism', to deal with the fact that there are no known precursors. -My inventive mechanism does not float around in midair waiting to create new organisms. It can only exist within already living creatures. The Cambrian Explosion lasted 5-10 million years. We have no precedent to go by, and so it's conceivable that such a period would allow time for the different innovations to take place in existing organisms, if they were the product of intelligent use of new conditions (Please remember, this hypothesis allows for God being the designer of the inventive mechanism.) David thinks God preprogrammed or dabbled with existing organisms, which still means common descent. Presumably you are suggesting that God made every new organism from scratch. There is of course no evidence for any of these hypotheses, so why do you think yours is more likely than the others?-TONY: Similarity does not indicate common descent, that is purely an assumption. -DHW: It is a theory, just as the existence of God, and God's separate creation of humans is a theory. (See below on theories and trust.)
TONY: Theories require rigorous evidence and testing, not speculation.-And when the evidence is conclusive and the tests have been passed, the theory changes from speculation to fact. This is certainly not possible with the Creationist theory, unless God appears to us all in person, and I doubt if it's possible with evolution (though you are right to complain that some folk insist it is already fact). What is your point?-DHW: I don't know of any disagreement over the classification of bananas, fruit flies, or for that matter gorillas and homo sapiens. I thought the problems arose over the classification of the so-called hominids and hominins, but you obviously know more about these things than I do, so perhaps you can put me right.
TONY: The disagreement is not over the classification of fruit flies and bananas. Humans are 50% genetically similar to bananas.-See below for bananas. In relation to human history, the problem of classification as I understand it lies with the hominids/hominins, because nobody quite knows to what extent they are to be classified as apes or humans.
 
TONY: http://genecuisine.blogspot.com/2011/03/human-dna-similarities-to-chimps-and.html&#...The point being that morphological similarity is what moved Darwin to lump us in with Apes. Genetic similarity is used to set the 'evolutionary clock' for species divergence. But if we are 50% genetically similar to bananas, at what point did humans and bananas share a common ancestor.-Yes of course it is morphological/genetic similarity that suggests common ancestry. But the theory is that all life, plant and animal, descended from the first living cells, and so all life ultimately goes back to them as the common ancestor, with billions of “splits” once multicellularity had occurred. Your article suggests that plant and animal life split approx. 1.5 billion years ago. But what is your theory? That God separately created, say, bananas, blackberries, pears and pomegranates etc.? If not, then as with gorillas and chimps they too must have split from a common ancestor.-As regards the biblical quotes, I was only pointing out that the one you offered was open to a different interpretation. I'm afraid a biblical instruction to look for evidence really won't make any difference to our debate on evolution - especially as I do not regard evolution as in any way denying or belittling God.