Unanswered questions (General)

by dhw, Friday, June 28, 2019, 10:08 (1754 days ago) @ David Turell

DAVID: I don't have to explain anything. I believe God chose to evolve humans from a start with bacteria. Thus the history of evolution is all His work. ID folks agree with me but don't name their required designer as God.

And they don’t claim that your God designed every single life form extant and extinct for the sole purpose of getting them to eat or not eat one another until he specially designed the only thing he wanted to design, which was us. The only support you have is for the existence of a designer.

DAVID: […] My description of God's actions follows the known history of evolution. He knew what had to be created over 3.8 billion years.

dhw: So let’s be clear: he, who was in full control, knew he "had to" specially design every single one of millions of non-human life forms, life styles and natural wonders extant and extinct before he could specially design the only thing he wanted to design, which was H. sapiens. But this is not confusing.

DAVID: You are trying to deny God knew what He had to do to get from bacteria to humans.

I am trying to deny that your God “had to” specially design millions of non-human life forms extant and extinct in order to specially design humans. Even you can’t tell us why he “had to” do it this way. So maybe there was another reason for designing them all, or maybe he didn’t design them all.

dhw: There is nothing “weak” about a God who deliberately creates a mechanism that gives free rein to his creations. Hence, for example, human free will. Creation for the enjoyment of creation is a purpose. Why do you think it is “extremely purposeful” to design the whale’s flipper, the cuttlefish’s camouflage, the monarch’s migration and the weaverbird’s nest in order to design the only thing he wanted to design, which was us?

DAVID: Because your vision of God is not very purposeful, as you humanize His thinking. Our vision of God differs widely.

What is the distinction between “purposeful” and “very purposeful”? Why is it right to say that your very purposeful God’s purpose was to create humans, but it is wrong to ask what was his purpose in creating humans, not to mention whales, monarch butterflies and weaverbirds’ nests? What is the point of insisting on “purposefulness” if you refuse to debate what the purposes might be?

dhw: As above, your God’s extreme purposefulness now amounts to specially designing octopus brains and weaverbirds’ nests so that they can eat or not eat one another. You forgot to mention that his only purpose was to design H. sapiens. Please explain how these two extremely purposeful purposes fit together.

DAVID: I have explained it to my satisfaction. God ran all of the process of evolution from the origin of life until what is present now.The history of evolution shows exactly what He did.

The history of evolution shows a succession of life forms, lifestyles and natural wonders. It does not show that your God designed every single one of them, and it does not show that your God’s purpose was that they should eat or not one another until he specially designed H. sapiens, which was his one and only purpose.

DAVID: Does your vision of God accept that He ran all of evolution? Simply His 'purpose' was to evolve humans with a start at bacteria. That is quite clear to me.

If God exists, my vision of him is that he set the process of evolution in motion. If he specially designed every organism, as you believe, then I would like a logical explanation as to how every organism that he specially designed could possibly serve the one and only purpose of specially designing humans.