Pointy eggs and whales (Evolution)

by David Turell , Thursday, August 30, 2018, 15:39 (2063 days ago) @ dhw

dhw: Does this mean that when your God created the root type, he put in a kind of computer programme for round AND pointy eggs (plus every other possible variation within that original root type), and when the murre settled on a slope, the computer programme automatically switched to pointy, thereby reshaping the cloaca? Just making sure I’ve understood, so please correct any misunderstandings.

DAVID: Your just-so story implies gradual changes. […] Either the gaps are true or the fossils for your story are not available. Available current evidence is on my side.

dhw: […] does available evidence really support your claim that 3.8 billion years ago your God preprogrammed eight stages of whalehood, or that he dabbled with all the pre-whales before they entered the water, and then over millions of years did seven more dabbles with all the intermediate whales to produce modern forms of whale?

DAVID: All we can do is make reasonable hypotheses based on available evidence. A designing mind is required. It is still chance or design, and even you reject chance.

dhw: That does not mean available current evidence favours your “just-so story” over mine.

Does your just-so story imply stepwise change on not? Why don't you answer the question?

DAVID: The so-called cell intelligence is based on definite evidence of what can be seen as logical responses of cells to stimuli. These responses can obviously be planned and automatic. They are shown to be a series of molecular reactions.

DHW: As with all our fellow creatures (e.g. the parrots you tell us about on another thread), we judge intelligence by behaviour. Behaviour always entails molecular reactions of some kind, as these are what enable organisms – including ourselves – to demonstrate intelligence!

DAVID: Parrots are not cells! They have brains. Straw man argument.

dhw: You have misunderstood. I said we judge intelligence by behaviour – whether it’s humans, parrots or bacteria.

TONY: Behavior is not as telling as choice. Can the organisms CHOOSE to do other than the prescribed chemical reactions? Do they show evidence of planning?

dhw: Most of the “cognitive” tests offer choice of some kind. Why are bacteria killed by antibiotics until they find modes of resistance? Are the “prescribed chemical reactions” that Billy will go glug and die, while Bobby finds a solution? There has to be choice. My view of evolution is that changes are not planned in advance but are triggered by environmental needs and/or opportunities.

DAVID: If dhw accepted planning He would creep closer to God. For me planning and design are obvious. It is what changed my views.

dhw: We agree on design of some kind. I do not believe that your God changed organismal structures in advance of the environmental changes those structures would be used for. I’d be interested to know if Tony thinks his God controls the environment, and if he specially created root types in advance of or in response to environmental change.

If by environmental change you mean entering water, that is different than climate change or Chixculub.