Cell response to electric field (Introduction)

by David Turell , Friday, April 12, 2013, 23:22 (4042 days ago) @ dhw

Last things first:
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> DAVID: You are misinterpreting Mc Clintock: She does not know the extent of self-knowledge within the cell, if any, but is saying the issue has to be explored, to be sure we are not missing anything.
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> dhw:That is far from saying, as you have done categorically, that the cell has no knowledge of itself.-There are feedback mechanisms which require the cell to respond. I doubt there is anything more, but the issue can have further exploration to confrim my statement.
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> DAVID: Talbott may dismiss 'automatism' but that is his way of accommodating his philosophy. In my mind his theory is simply wrong, but his objections to Darwinism are correct. Simply put, if you accept my scenario, God has to exist.
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> dhw: He would say your insistence on automatism is your way of accommodating your philosophy. And to his mind, your theory is simply wrong. And simply put, if you accept Dawkins' scenario, God doesn't exist.-Understood, but as you know, I think Dawkins is all wet.-> 
> DAVID: "The cell responds to imbedded information, and does no thinking on its own." "Consciousness in this case is an automatic chemical response by cellular molecules, which trigger the change." "...you persist in not seeing the progression of events to prepare for evolution. God in His intelligence coded DNA to contain all the information cells would need to respond to the environment and complexify as necessary. The cell molecules respond automatically." 
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> dhw:And of course you may well be right..... If I may adapt your comment on "Panpsychism and vitalism" about cells: "Humans appear to have thought...'Appear' is the key word. Humans do not think." -Of course humans think and that is why we are not automotons. The emergent phenomenon of consciouus thought allows us to control our brain from within and without. My 'free' thoughts are not in my brain but are part of my 'self' or 'soul', and my attempts to think and to learn, we now know, actually cause my brain to develop new neurons and new connections automatically, from which my consciousness actualy expands. This is miraculous stuff, just like the origin if life. There you have two points for the existence of God.
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> dhw: But you do not believe that humans are automatons (they have free will), and I remain open-minded on the subject. Perhaps you will understand, then, why I find this discussion confusingly inconsistent. I can grasp the argument that cells are automatons, but I see no logical reason why it should not apply to humans (God or no God).-I've answered above, our free-wheeling consciousness.-> dhw: I can grasp the argument that humans are NOT automatons, but I see no logical reason why this should not apply to our fellow animals, plants, and cells (God or no God), especially in the context of evolutionary innovation. (As I said before, once the innovation is established, the cells will conform to the new pattern.) And so, since we don't have a clue how "intelligence" works, or how innovation works, why should we insist on any one theory to the exclusion of all others?-I have agreed that animals have some degree of consciousness, and it is well established that plants have reactions, but they are automatic. Plants do not have nervous systems, the basis for a degree of consciousness. I frankly have no understanding of your concept of 'intelligence'. I have explained to you that the informatin in living matter is put into the genome by prior timing from intelligence which I presume to be God. We are looking at a step-wise process. Again this is the basis of the Intelligent Design theory, with which I agree. Chance is the Dawkins approach, and you can suppose all the 'third ways' you wish, but no one has found one that is reasonable to consider. Cells do not think or plan. They can only react according to their pre-set programming. -Which is why livers are so wonderful. We have no idea how they could have been developed de novo by chance! Or any of the other wonderful complex organs we have.